Management Representative is NOT a member of Management

[Paul Simpson]

Further interesting debate. Here's my take on the requirements of 9001. Now it's not in the standard wording - but we can all read that. This is my attempt to translate from ISO Speak into 'Borisish' - the language I use when talking to real people. I appreciate it may not explain it to everyone and if this doesn't work I generally take another turn with different wording based on the first lot of feedback until, hopefully, there is a common understanding .... or in the case of Randy and Big Jim we agree to disagree.

5.5.2 The gals and guys that run the business pick someone of sufficient authority (who may have another job) from within the business to:

a) make sure that everything required to ensure the organization continues to satisfy customers is done all the time,

b) reports back to the top guys and gals on how well this works and whether anything needs fixing, and

c) pushes the message throughout the business that this system is all about keeping customers satisfied and coming back.

... er, that's it!

 

[amanbhai]

I am the MR in a big organization. I am thankful to Jim and others for giving us the oppertunity to learn. Thank you

 

[andrev]

To JaneB and Jim
Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

By the way this is taken from the official ISO.ORG website, explaining ISO 9001:2008

I keep on reading and re-reading the standard requirements, and looking through my own audits, and I cant see where I am missing the point.

 

[Big Jim]

To JaneB and Jim
Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

By the way this is taken from the official ISO.ORG website, explaining ISO 9001:2008

I keep on reading and re-reading the standard requirements, and looking through my own audits, and I cant see where I am missing the point.

You won't find the actual wording of the standard posted on their web site. They wish you to purchase a copy of the standard. To get the actual wording, you need to get a copy of the actual standard, not something that describes it.

 

[Big Jim]

Further interesting debate. Here's my take on the requirements of 9001. Now it's not in the standard wording - but we can all read that. This is my attempt to translate from ISO Speak into 'Borisish' - the language I use when talking to real people. I appreciate it may not explain it to everyone and if this doesn't work I generally take another turn with different wording based on the first lot of feedback until, hopefully, there is a common understanding .... or in the case of Randy and Big Jim we agree to disagree.

5.5.2 The gals and guys that run the business pick someone of sufficient authority (who may have another job) from within the business to:

a) make sure that everything required to ensure the organization continues to satisfy customers is done all the time,

b) reports back to the top guys and gals on how well this works and whether anything needs fixing, and

c) pushes the message throughout the business that this system is all about keeping customers satisfied and coming back.

... er, that's it!

I have no problem with your overall description in layman's terms. I often use a similar analogy, saying the the management representative is the shepherd of the quality management system. The analogy breaks down though when the organization is made of of cats instead of sheep.

 

[Jim Wynne]

To JaneB and Jim
Now this is clear that the management representative must be member of organization’s own management.

By the way this is taken from the official ISO.ORG website, explaining ISO 9001:2008

I keep on reading and re-reading the standard requirements, and looking through my own audits, and I cant see where I am missing the point.

The distinction you refer to which changed the 9001-2000 wording to "...member of the organization'smanagement..." was intended to clear up questions about whether a consultant could be designated as the MR. It has nothing to do with what constitutes "management" except to eliminate consultants.

 

[JaneB]

To get the actual wording, you need to get a copy of the actual standard, not something that describes it.

Yes, very true.

 

[jtenrec]

I am in a somewhat similar situation. I was hired as a temporary/part-time employee to write the quality manual by a small non-implantable medical device manufacturer < 10 employees. I have 2 low level ASQ certs and minimal experience. Three months into this process, the company has gotten a grant from a state agency that mentors companies to seeking ISO cert. We are going for both 9001:2008 & 13485. I have been learning on the fly. The company president is the decision maker. But to meet the conditions of the grant, the foreman and final inspector are included in the process. But the only real management is the president. He has appointed me the management representative (the foreman and the final inspector are not capable of implementing the qms), even though I am not a member of management, am part-time and am not there (I am mostly working from home) to implement the system. I do not have authority to do anything without approval from the president. He is the implementer of the qms. So, if I understand the previous posts and the link that was included, we can expect this to be caught during the audit by the registrar. If this is so, how does a small company that doesn't truly have a "management team" cope with this?
Thanks,
Alan

 

[Sidney Vianna]

we can expect this to be caught during the audit by the registrar.

Not necessarily. Depending on the caliber, attentiveness, knowledge and mood of auditor as well as the quality of the donuts, the issue might not be uncovered....

If it does, who knows, you might be elevated to a member of management? Or, like in many cases, the president will self appoint as the management rep, but IMMEDIATELY delegate all the responsibilities back to you. So, you inherit the responsibilities and the president keeps the authority. Seems fair...

 

[JaneB]

I do not have authority to do anything without approval from the president. He is the implementer of the qms. So, if I understand the previous posts and the link that was included, we can expect this to be caught during the audit by the registrar. If this is so, how does a small company that doesn't truly have a "management team" cope with this?

In answer to your last question, with difficulty and/or by taking the kind of action the president has in this case.
I'd consider him as the true MR and owner of the system, and you as a resource he uses to do much of the work which has been delegated to you.