Management Representative is NOT a member of Management

[Randy]

I believe that in the context of today's business, you need someone who can make things happen. If you delegate this to a person who for example manages a floor scrubbing process (yes, you can call this person a manager), I wonder if the INTENT of the standard is met.

Stijloor.

Nobody can "make" anything happen. Things happen because people perform as required or necessary...It takes a personal decison "to do". How many times have you be "told" to do something and you said "p^ss off" either vocally or action (in-action). I used to carry a gun, a badge, was a big dude over 200 lbs and had the who judicial system behind me and people still to me to commit unnatural acts when I tried to "make" them do stuff. People acted (obeyed) because they chose to obey. I have seen many organizations where individuals down in the trenches weilded more influence and control than the guys at the top. That is why it has to be up to Top Management to designate who they think is the appropriate person(s).

 

[somashekar]

Can a management outsource a management representative giving that person the required authority and responsibility and contract with that person for visits to the organization only on certain days in the week to work, paying him a consultant fee ?

 

[Stijloor]

Can a management outsource a management representative giving that person the required authority and responsibility and contract with that person for visits to the organization only on certain days in the week to work, paying him a consultant fee ?

This topic "Who can be the Management Representative? Independent contractor?" was hotly debated here.

Stijloor.

 

[daraghofla]

my understanding, taken from our accreditation auditor, was that one of the main changes between the 2000 and the 2008 versions of ISO9001 was that the MR must be a member of the organisation. ie, no longer is it ok to bring in consultants and outside individuals.

This is somewhat backed up by the wording of 5.5.2 within 9001:2008

 

[Jason PCSwitches]

Yeah the standard clearly states that the MR must be a member of the organizations management.

 

[Randy]

Yeah the standard clearly states that the MR must be a member of the organizations management.

Yep, but nowhere does it say 40 hrs and 5 days a week and that's where the argument begins. What happens if an organization clearly states in its personnel policy and actions that "All persons, full time, part-time, contractor or Temp are considered employees with regards to rules, policies and regulations".

 

[somashekar]

Yeah the standard clearly states that the MR must be a member of the organizations management.

If the same organization's management feels that this activity is better to be outsourced as said in clause 4.1, ~~~ ?

 

[daraghofla]

Yep, but nowhere does it say 40 hrs and 5 days a week and that's where the argument begins. What happens if an organization clearly states in its personnel policy and actions that "All persons, full time, part-time, contractor or Temp are considered employees with regards to rules, policies and regulations".

Understood. However, the standard is tackling the important issue of management responsibility. I translate 5.5.2 roughly as "an individual, with supervisory powers over the process owners, must be present". The clause makes sense when viewed from this perspective. What's the point of altering your defined organisation roles so as to allow someone with ZERO influence be the management rep?

 

[AndyN]

my understanding, taken from our accreditation auditor, was that one of the main changes between the 2000 and the 2008 versions of ISO9001 was that the MR must be a member of the organisation. ie, no longer is it ok to bring in consultants and outside individuals.

This is somewhat backed up by the wording of 5.5.2 within 9001:2008

Not really! Many 'senior' management are not exactly 'employees' and often only show up a couple of days a month. They may even hold other similar positions in other companies. So, why can't a 'consultant' do this - how would anyone know? If they hold non-executive management position...

BTW - was it an accreditation auditor or your CB auditor? Makes a big difference...

 

[somashekar]

I'm hoping to get some help here from the professionals........

In our most recent external periodic audit we had a n/c written up against section 5.5.2. The individual we identified as the MR is NOT a member of management.

We have submitted to CAs that have been rejected.

The real root cause is that we made a conscious decision to ignore this portion of the standard. We didn't feel it was important enough when compared with our issues with document control, tool calibration etc etc.

I'm trying to avoid submitting this as root cause because I don't know what the corrective action would be to directly address the RC and prevent recurrence.

I need some help, advice, opinions or whatever I can get. Thank you.

Coming back to the OP's opener ... On what evidence did the auditor conclude that the MR is not member of management.
If that person has the necessary competency and has been provided the necesary authority and responsibility, and the management themself states that 'HE IS THE MR' of the company by way of a contract letter or any other document of appointment as MR, no external auditor can further rake up the MR appointment matter.
If you have such evidence and have not presented same, please do that. OR as a CA, make it available.