Management Representative Requirements - ISO 9k2k Clause 5.5.2a interpretation

J

juliov

#1
Hello quality partners, what is your take on the following:
I just finished reading in ASQ Quality Progress October's issue: "How to fail the ISO 9001 driver's test" by Paul Palmes, the article contents were right on target on the insight into what might be one of the top management most common flaws dealing with the MR (review the article in ASQ QP). It is a great article.
Question is:

Req 5.5.2a states: ("ensuring that process needed..........") by using the word "ensuring" this is implying that the MR is given authority to carry through this req. Can you offer your view of what this requirement is implying, how much authority can be given? According to Paul's article it says that some companies appoint a member of "management periphery" as an MR, this being said we should ask, what can someone do without much authority, and also, it appears that most companies don't understand this req too well, or they take it too lightly...Look forward to your responses,

Thanks,
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

Hello quality partners, what is your take on the following:
I just finished reading in ASQ Quality Progress October's issue: "How to fail the ISO 9001 driver's test" by Paul Palmes, the article contents were right on target on the insight into what might be one of the top management most common flaws dealing with the MR (review the article in ASQ QP). It is a great article.
Question is:

Req 5.5.2a states: ("ensuring that process needed..........") by using the word "ensuring" this is implying that the MR is given authority to carry through this req. Can you offer your view of what this requirement is implying, how much authority can be given? According to Paul's article it says that some companies appoint a member of "management periphery" as an MR, this being said we should ask, what can someone do without much authority, and also, it appears that most companies don't understand this req too well, or they take it too lightly...Look forward to your responses,

Thanks,
I would interpret that paragraph as: "the authority to ensure that the processes critical to the organization are documented." Which could mean procedures or work instructions.

Could you post an excerpt from the article for information?
 
J

juliov

#3
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

Thanks for the input, here is an brief excerpt:

"The MR is supposed to be a member of management. In reality, however, this assignment is often delegated to a person working at the periphery of true top level management. This decision often results from misconception, arrogance, indifference or the sadly appropriate conclusion that somehow executive management has neither the time nor the contact with operations to effectively oversee the audit. Choosing a novice—in disregard of the remaining requirements of ISO 9001’s section 5.5.2 calling for real authority to “establish, implement, maintain and report on progress”—is a recipe for remorse.

thus, how can the above be effectively implemented...
 

RoxaneB

Change Agent and Data Storyteller
Super Moderator
#4
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

I would interpret that paragraph as: "the authority to ensure that the processes critical to the organization are documented." Which could mean procedures or work instructions.

Could you post an excerpt from the article for information?
The article is available on the ASQ site. Can't recall if you have to be a subscribing member to read it though and rather than violate some copyright laws, I'll let some other ASQ member with more knowledge step up here.

"...documented." :nope: How about established, implemented and maintained? Documented only where necessary.

That being said, the Management Representative should have the authority to establish, implement and maintain (heck, let's tack on improve) the Quality Management System. Better yet, the Management Rep will coordinate and champion these activies, while letting the actual users of the system do the actual work.

The problem arises in selecting someone who is both capable and competent to do the job. Not to slam our more junior members, but implementing a system is extremely difficult and confusing for people with no experience and yet there are organizations who feel that someone straight out of school should be able to do just that.

When they succeed, my concern is that they have deveoped a system for the piece of paper on the wall...not one which will actually add value to the organization.

When they fail, my concern is that the lose faith in the tools and methodologies which exist to truly help an organization.

It is impossible to blame any one person for the results of a failed audit. Miscommunication and misunderstandings are prevalent at all levels.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

Thanks for the input, here is an brief excerpt:

"The MR is supposed to be a member of management.
It really doesn't say that the MR has to be part of management only the authority to present information related to the QMS, but not responsible for the QMS.


In reality, however, this assignment is often delegated
to a person working at the periphery of true top level management. This decision often results from misconception, arrogance, indifference or the
sadly appropriate conclusion that somehow executive management has neither the time nor the contact with operations to effectively oversee the audit.
That would depend on how top management feels about improving their Business structure.


Choosing a novice—in disregard of the remaining requirements of ISO 9001’s section 5.5.2 calling for real authority to “establish, implement, maintain and report on progress”—is a recipe for remorse.

thus, how can the above be effectively implemented...

Again, this depends on the attitude/understanding of the Top Management.
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
#7
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

It seems that the problem might be that "member of management" isn't properly defined, and allows for a tautological argument, that being that the person appointed as MR is, by merit of the appointment alone, a member of management, "irrespective of other responsibilities."

Failure to delegate responsibility and authority is the prime failing of most registered systems.
 
J

juliov

#8
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

Thanks. Let's hear from the MR's out in the quality field to tell us their view of 5.5.2a.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Leader
Admin
#9
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

Thanks for the input, here is an brief excerpt:

"The MR is supposed to be a member of management. In reality, however, this assignment is often delegated to a person working at the periphery of true top level management. This decision often results from misconception, arrogance, indifference or the sadly appropriate conclusion that somehow executive management has neither the time nor the contact with operations to effectively oversee the audit. Choosing a novice—in disregard of the remaining requirements of ISO 9001’s section 5.5.2 calling for real authority to “establish, implement, maintain and report on progress”—is a recipe for remorse.

thus, how can the above be effectively implemented...
A member of managementn is not a "member of top management"
In fact he does not even need to be an employee
Clause 5.5.2 - RFI-027 Posted 2003-01-31
Other interpretations on ISO/TC 176's Interpretations website
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Leader
Super Moderator
#10
Re: ISO 9k2k 5.5.2a interpretation.....

"The MR is supposed to be a member of management. In reality, however, this assignment is often delegated to a person working at the periphery of true top level management.
Jim Wynne said:
It seems that the problem might be that "member of management" isn't properly defined, and allows for a tautological argument, that being that the person appointed as MR is, by merit of the appointment alone, a member of management, "irrespective of other responsibilities."

Failure to delegate responsibility and authority is the prime failing of most registered systems.
This is what happened to me at the first company that made me the MR. I ran the CMM and I ran the inspection room - but I was not the Quality Manager. When I could not get anything accomplished and asked to go back to the inspection room and my CMM I was told that they had already replaced me and they didn't need two people in there. I quit as soon as I found another job.
 
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