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Management Representative Requirements - ISO 9k2k Clause 5.5.2a interpretation

RoxaneB

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#21
#21
It all boils down to having someone - no matter what their other responsibilities (if any) - who knows what a QMS is, how to implement/establish/develop/maintain/improve one, and is competent to do their job.

If the CEO doesn't understand the requirements, then the CEO should not be the Management Representative. Doesn't stop the CEO, however, from supporting and providing the Management Representative with the necessary responsibilities and authorities.

If the Maintenance Manager is best suited for the position, go wild and crazy.

If the Management Representative can't do the job effectively and competently, then said person should not be the Management Representative.

The end....or things just too simplistic in my world? :notme:
 
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Coury Ferguson

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
#22
juliov,

I hope this thread has been helpful. You have gotten a lot of feedback on your post. RC has rsponded very well to your question and I agree with RC's assessment. You can also see similar threads on this subject like:

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=18174

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=18422

RCBeyette said:
It all boils down to having someone - no matter what their other responsibilities (if any) - who knows what a QMS is, how to implement/establish/develop/maintain/improve one, and is competent to do their job.

If the CEO doesn't understand the requirements, then the CEO should not be the Management Representative. Doesn't stop the CEO, however, from supporting and providing the Management Representative with the necessary responsibilities and authorities.

If the Maintenance Manager is best suited for the position, go wild and crazy.

If the Management Representative can't do the job effectively and competently, then said person should not be the Management Representative.

The end....or things just too simplistic in my world?
Click to expand...
 
B

Boro Col

Starting to get Involved
#23
#23
Although the Management Rep is 'empowered' to ensure compliance with 5.5.2 requirements the accountability lies with the Senior Manager (or MD) to ensure the availability of resources - see 5.1 e) this also ties in with 7.2.2 c) 'ensure the organisation has ability to meet the defined requirements'. In other words if there is evidence that the Man Rep function is under resourced and this is having an impact on meeting Customers requirements the the Directors would most likely carry the can - not the Man Rep.
Note that the standard does not imply a limitless supply of resources!!
 
V

vanputten

#24
#24
"It all boils down to having someone - no matter what their other responsibilities (if any) - who knows what a QMS is, how to implement/establish/develop/maintain/improve one, and is competent to do their job."

The above may be meaningless if the competent person has no authority. I may be a janitor who's desk is in the CAD room and occassionally I run the CMM machine. I am competent and I have implemented many, many systems. I have a master's degree in Systems Thinking. I have written 4 books on ISO 9001.

If I were to have all of those things but no given authority and no referent authority, what good is it? I could yell from the hillside all day without any benefit or effect on the organzition.

Appoint a member who has the responsibility and authroity......

Regards,

Dirk
 
P

potdar

#26
#26
vanputten said:
"It all boils down to having someone - no matter what their other responsibilities (if any) - who knows what a QMS is, how to implement/establish/develop/maintain/improve one, and is competent to do their job."

The above may be meaningless if the competent person has no authority. I may be a janitor who's desk is in the CAD room and occassionally I run the CMM machine. I am competent and I have implemented many, many systems. I have a master's degree in Systems Thinking. I have written 4 books on ISO 9001.

If I were to have all of those things but no given authority and no referent authority, what good is it? I could yell from the hillside all day without any benefit or effect on the organzition.

Appoint a member who has the responsibility and authroity......

Regards,

Dirk
Click to expand...
Exactly Dirk:agree1:

I'll just split the staement with some reference attached. ISO 9001:2000 says, Any person engaged in a job affecting product quality should be competent to do the job (6.2.1). So should be the MR as hi work, the QMS, affects product quality.

The MR is supposed to have certain responsibilities and authorities (5.5.2). And his responsibilities an authorities are supposed to be defined and communicated within the organisation by the "Top" management (5.5.1).

Having delegated the relevant authority to him, the "Top" management has to support if he has any problems in exercising it. Else, he doesn't have it.

Once these issues are met, it hardly matters whether he is the CEO, an operator or a janitor... an employee or a non-employee.

Only thing to judge would be how effectively he meets his responsibilities. And that is what the article seems to lament.

So do most of us.
 
J

juliov

#27
#27
Agree 100%. However, it does happen that some organizations do appoint an MR because it is an ISO req, but are not fully aware of the responsibilities that come with the role. If the MR's role were to be properly implemented major improvements could be gained as well as implementing an effective QMS in a shorter time. Actually I am seeing based on many articles and observations that this requirement is very misunderstood and not implemented to its full potential.
 
J

JRKH

#28
#28
Very interesting discussion. Lets take this one step at a time.

The standard states:
"Top management shall appoint a member of management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, Shall have responsibility and authority tha includes"

NOTE: Responsibility and Authority are a SHALL

a) ensuring that processes needed for the quality management system are estableished, implemented, and maintained.
b) reporting to top management on the performance of the quality management system and any need for improvement, and
c) ensuring the promotion of awareness of cutomer requirements throughout the organization.

Regardless of who is appointed, this person must be given the requisite authority or an auditor could write a finding based on this. A finding might follow that "A MR has not been appointed with appropriate authority....". This would likely be a Major finding since it calls into question the management commitment.

This authority, once given, must be enforced by top management. Without that enforcement nothing can be accomplished period.

If the MR has the authority and it is enforced by top management then the MR must take the responsibility to perform 5.5.2 a, b, and c of the standard.
 
J

juliov

#29
#29
Thanks JRKH. Right on target. Pointing out the two "shalls" in the requirement highlights the importace of the role of the MR and if the req is properly implemented the result will be an effective QMS.
 
P

Paul Palmes

#30
#30
I find the thread thus far to be a blend of "definition vs results." Both perspectives, the understandable desire to define, in contrast to the ultimate intent of the paragraph in question, are approprite. However, as the author of the piece, I was primarily concerned and in full agreement with those such as Dirk who point to the end result of top management indifference or lack of understanding:

"It all boils down to having someone - no matter what their other responsibilities (if any) - who knows what a QMS is, how to implement/establish/develop/maintain/improve one, and is competent to do their job."

"The above may be meaningless if the competent person has no authority. I may be a janitor who's desk is in the CAD room and occassionally I run the CMM machine. I am competent and I have implemented many, many systems. I have a master's degree in Systems Thinking. I have written 4 books on ISO 9001.

If I were to have all of those things but no given authority and no referent authority, what good is it? I could yell from the hillside all day without any benefit or effect on the organzition."

Thanks, Dirk - I would add that in too many cases where the MR is undersupported, it's often the result of "You don't know what you don't know!" The novice must first educate him or herself about the standard to know what resources are required to proceed. The moment of truth comes when the educated MR revisits management with a bill of particulars. It's at this juncture that an MR who is not a peer group member - even a deputy peer - often faces a degree of undersupport that has lasting consequences.

My message is an old one - none of this works well without true management support. In the case of 5.5.2, after a few hours of working alongside the MR, most auditors are better aware of top management's true corroboration and involvement in the QMS simply through his or her responses.

Finally, let's not forget that this element resides in Section 5 of the standard, and thereby falls under the heading: Management Responsibility.

Many thanks to all!
Paul
 
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