Management Representative - Specific Training Required?

[SteelMaiden]

Our MR has been the MR since day one, three years ago. If we had an incompetent MR, would we have gotten this far?

Um, that is a loaded question and I refuse to answer it on the grounds that it may incriminate me.

Just remember, you don't just assess competency one time and you are done for life. There needs to be reassessment at some predefined interval. Like yearly and when job responsibilities are added or changed.

 

[noboost4you]

Um, that is a loaded question and I refuse to answer it on the grounds that it may incriminate me.

Just remember, you don't just assess competency one time and you are done for life. There needs to be reassessment at some predefined interval. Like yearly and when job responsibilities are added or changed.

Standard doesn't say anything about reassessing competency; however we do have annual reviews.

Another part of our 6.2.2

The effectiveness of training activities conducted at XYZ is assessed through continuous evaluation and documented through the use of a Verification of Effective Training and/or Statement of Performance form.

Statement of Performances are performed during annual reviews.

 

[AndyN]

I still have those questions - do you define competency requirements for your MR and have you performed an 'evaluation' of competency?

And I will answer the question! Yes, it's possible for anyone to be in a job for three years and still not be competent - if there's no defined competency requirements and there's never been an evaluation, let me explain:

In the training industry, it is well known that there are 4 phases of adult learning:-

- Unconscious incompetence
- Conscious incompetence
- Conscious competence
- Unconscious competence

None of these phases is concrete - we all move through each phase, to and fro, as things change.

For example, although I've used a pc for many years, I've recently moved to a Mac and have to discover all kinds of new tricks - some were easier than others! I'm still discovering many features and sometimes go to close a screen in the top right hand - like windows - instead of the top left hand.

This is event based, not time based and you could find that 360+ days after something changed, you might have someone who is unconsciously incompetent in some aspect of their job - they don't know what they don't know...so management had better discover what that person's competency needs to be without waiting too long!

 

[noboost4you]

I still have those questions - do you define competency requirements for your MR and have you performed an 'evaluation' of competency?

And I will answer the question! Yes, it's possible for anyone to be in a job for three years and still not be competent - if there's no defined competency requirements and there's never been an evaluation, let me explain:

In the training industry, it is well known that there are 4 phases of adult learning:-

- Unconscious incompetence
- Conscious incompetence
- Conscious competence
- Unconscious competence

None of these phases is concrete - we all move through each phase, to and fro, as things change.

For example, although I've used a pc for many years, I've recently moved to a Mac and have to discover all kinds of new tricks - some were easier than others! I'm still discovering many features and sometimes go to close a screen in the top right hand - like windows - instead of the top left hand.

This is event based, not time based and you could find that 360+ days after something changed, you might have someone who is unconsciously incompetent in some aspect of their job - they don't know what they don't know...so management had better discover what that person's competency needs to be without waiting too long!

Where in 5.5.2 does it state competency requirements for MR are required? It doesn't. Now, where in 6.2.2 does it specifically call out MR? It doesn't. Ok, competency requirements are laid out in job descriptions. The job description of MR is laid out in 5.5.2. If the auditor has a problem with competency requirements for MR, shouldn't he have written up the other 40 positions we have?

And if the quality management system hasn't drastically changed in 3 years, wouldn't the MR still be considered competent? Your example of going from a PC to a Mac isn't relevant in this case. However, since implementation, there have been a few individuals that went from one department to another. This is where we document the Verification of Effective Training statement. Even though that person was deemed competent for the job they held during implementation, they have since moved onto another position with different responsibilities; therefore, requiring a new level of competency. This is where your PC/Mac example should fall. If you went from PC to PC, still competent, right?

Unless the process changes, re-evaluating competency levels for a specific position does not add value.

 

[AndyN]

All I can say is I really don't know what you're looking for from this discussion. I'll let someone else take it from here...

 

[noboost4you]

All I can say is I really don't know what you're looking for from this discussion. I'll let someone else take it from here...

Thanks for going back and forth with me, but it seems like you and our auditor went to the same school.

I've mentioned everything we have, say we do, and have shown the auditor. You haven't been able to give me concrete evidence of what we're doing is insufficient; just like our auditor and his poor nonconformity report.

You asked where we define competencies to which I replied, job descriptions. Is this incorrect? If it is, shine some light, if it isn't, state differently. Your replies haven't been substantial, but rather just examples that don't deal with the standard at hand.

 

[AndyN]

Thanks for going back and forth with me, but it seems like you and our auditor went to the same school.

I've mentioned everything we have, say we do, and have shown the auditor. You haven't been able to give me concrete evidence of what we're doing is insufficient.

You asked where we define competencies to which I replied, job descriptions. Is this incorrect? If it is, shine some light, if it isn't, state differently. Your replies haven't been substantial, but rather just examples that don't deal with the standard at hand.

I'll take that comment as a light-hearted, jab and not seriously! I wouldn't have written an nc with so little objective evidence! Since I went to my LA training back in 1987, I rather doubt your auditor went to the same course. I learned from the creators of the first ever LA course - before the rush to do ISO corrupted things!

I can't make my answers more substantial - as you put it - and I detect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you really don't want to see an opportunity here, to review this in the light of comments made. That's fair enough I suppose, but since you started the thread, one has to decide when enough is enough. I'm reminded of the line from the Monty Python 'Argument' sketch - "If you want any more, you have to pay!"

 

[noboost4you]

I'll take that comment as a light-hearted, jab and not seriously! I wouldn't have written an nc with so little objective evidence! Since I went to my LA training back in 1987, I rather doubt your auditor went to the same course. I learned from the creators of the first ever LA course - before the rush to do ISO corrupted things!

I can't make my answers more substantial - as you put it - and I detect (correct me if I'm wrong) that you really don't want to see an opportunity here, to review this in the light of comments made. That's fair enough I suppose, but since you started the thread, one has to decide when enough is enough. I'm reminded of the line from the Monty Python 'Argument' sketch - "If you want any more, you have to pay!"

Plain and simple, what are we doing wrong? With all the evidence I have brought forth to you, tell me where this nonconformity has merit.

 

[Randy]

Plain and simple, what are we doing wrong? With all the evidence I have brought forth to you, tell me where this nonconformity has merit.

There is no requirement for the MR to be competent it can be shown that the MR does not have anything to do with product conformity (6.2.1 & 6.2.2 as reference) so therefore in the absence of any evidence showing a realtionship of an MR to product conformity the NC has no merit.

 

[AndyN]

Plain and simple, what are we doing wrong? With all the evidence I have brought forth to you, tell me where this nonconformity has merit.

I thought I'd said a couple of times that it didn't....for a lack of objective evidence...