Management Review: Separate Procedure or Description in Quality Manual?

How do you address Management Review?

  • Quality Manual (only)

    Votes: 16 18.8%
  • Management Review Procedure

    Votes: 22 25.9%
  • Both

    Votes: 38 44.7%
  • I use a simple form (agenda)

    Votes: 9 10.6%

  • Total voters
    85

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#51
Coury Ferguson said:
That is where the procedure or policy would define the intervals.
Thank you for the clarification. Your question about an agenda meeting the intent led me to interpret you saying a procedure/policy was not needed.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#52
Coury Ferguson said:
As for your question. It is basically up to you to determine how you want to document the Management Review (via procedure or policy). I have documented the Management Review process in a working procedure.

As for the other discussions. Let me throw this question out there:

Would not an Management Review Meeting Agenda that identifies the parties involved and certain discussions, meet the intent of ISO9001:2000?


Coury Ferguson
Program/Contracts Manager

Any document that identifies your intentions could meet the intent. A procedure, agenda, paragraph in the manual. In ISO, the "level" of the document is no longer an issue. Records must be kept. I actually use the agenda as a template, and enter the records and info into each relevant section.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#53
RCBeyette said:
Thank you for the clarification. Your question about an agenda meeting the intent led me to interpret you saying a procedure/policy was not needed.
In my company we use an Agenda and the attached document to report the results of the Management Review. Participants names removed

I have had no issues come about with this document.
 

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Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#54
In my humble opinion the way we perform Management Review should be described only in the Quality Manual. Procedures directly related to the QMS should only be those necessary by the standard (6 subjects for ISO 9001 or 7 for ISO/TS).
The quality manual is the right place for us to write all the function of the system.
Last week I made a Quality audit to an organization with a Quality Manual of 5 pages. Is this really a Manual or a brochure?
Today, if I make a QMS, but had no need of registration, I wouldn’t make any of those 6 or 7 procedures. Procedures are just for technical subjects. :rolleyes:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#55
António Vieira said:
Procedures directly related to the QMS should only be those necessary by the standard (6 subjects for ISO 9001 or 7 for ISO/TS).
The standard does not limit you to six or seven procedures (4.2.1.c). The very next sentence (4.2.1.d) says, "and any other documents needed..."

Of course a system needs other documents to run, and they can be procedures, work instructions, videos...anything.

The standard is trying to loosen up this legalism, and we keep trying to put it back. Why?
 

Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#56
hjilling said:
Of course a system needs other documents to run, and they can be procedures, work instructions, videos...anything.
The standard is trying to loosen up this legalism, and we keep trying to put it back. Why?
One thing I’ve learned during all the years working in the quality management field is that in any organization, the number of documented procedures is directly proportional to the knowledge of the workers doing the activities.
If you have very trained personnel, you need few papers telling them how to perform their work.
If the standard (ISO 9001) didn’t require 6 areas for documented procedures, in my QMS, I wouldn’t have any. Normally I write in the Quality Manual the “policies” related to all requirements of the standard, but I avoid, as much as possible to have documented procedures or instructions.
We are not supposed to teach a civil engineer how to build a house because he learned that at University, the same way we should have papers written to tell a worker how to do his job. What we must have is highly trained personnel.
This is the reason why documented procedures trend to be shorter or even disappear during the evolution of every company. (In some cases they are there, but they are completely useful).;)
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#57
António Vieira said:
One thing I’ve learned during all the years working in the quality management field is that in any organization, the number of documented procedures is directly proportional to the knowledge of the workers doing the activities.
If you have very trained personnel, you need few papers telling them how to perform their work.
If the standard (ISO 9001) didn’t require 6 areas for documented procedures, in my QMS, I wouldn’t have any. Normally I write in the Quality Manual the “policies” related to all requirements of the standard, but I avoid, as much as possible to have documented procedures or instructions.
We are not supposed to teach a civil engineer how to build a house because he learned that at University, the same way we should have papers written to tell a worker how to do his job. What we must have is highly trained personnel.
This is the reason why documented procedures trend to be shorter or even disappear during the evolution of every company. (In some cases they are there, but they are completely useful).;)

I agree with your comments. Some of my clients embed their procedures into their quality manual. I agree they don't have to be separate documents. Even the six (minimum) required ones can be imbedded if it is clear that is how you handle procedures. The level is not the important point.
 
G

Greg B

#58
I agree in regards to the Competency level. If we have a highly skilled workforce then we do not require as detailed instructions s greenfield company but we must always allow for the lowest common denominator which will always be the 'New Guy'

Here is my Competency slide used to illustrate where Work Instructions etc fit in the scheme of things within our company
 

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Crusader

Trusted Information Resource
#59
I voted for the Procedure but somewhat we do both. The Quality Manual only references that we do a Mgmt Review and nothing more. The procedure identifies everything that is ISO 9001 required plus extras that we want to add into the meeting.
Our Agenda follows the exact structure of the procedure and then the meeting minutes are an exact structure of the agenda itemizing everything discussed.

I have found that process flowcharts for Mgmt Review do not "cut it" in our audits - my procedure flies thru audits. In fact, the auditor almost never has any questions to ask. He just sits there takes notes and we're done. It's awesome! All tap-dancing has been eliminated. :applause:
 

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K

kirilll

#60
I use a 1 page process map (detailed flowchart) of the management review process that clearly shows the required and desired inputs/outputs and the link to CAPA and CI. In conjunction with the Management Review record (agenda) that incorporates followup, assignment, metrics, etc., the process has really proven to be consistent at every client and the third party auditors rarely have any questions or comments. Clients love it and it make me look really good.

Take a look at *** link removed *** or send me an e-mail if you want more info or have any questions or comments.

Note: Contact information is available in user profile.
 
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