Management Review: Separate Procedure or Description in Quality Manual?

How do you address Management Review?

  • Quality Manual (only)

    Votes: 16 18.8%
  • Management Review Procedure

    Votes: 22 25.9%
  • Both

    Votes: 38 44.7%
  • I use a simple form (agenda)

    Votes: 9 10.6%

  • Total voters
    85
J

JaneB

#61
I voted for neither - I've rarely found a 'procedure' to tell managers how to manage has added much value, though there is some value in identifying the various levels & forums that management review takes place on, particularly in larger organisations.
It can, for example, happen at different levels. One tool I've often used successfully to show that is a matrix - I've attached an example, which is for a department that was successfully certified, but was part of a large corporation which wasn't. So we needed to show what happened where, and what the department could control, and what it couldn't.

In smaller organisations, I've usually found that one or both of having things defined in job descriptions and/or making sure there's something like a standing Agenda in place works fine. The absolute last thing you want is a bunch of managers sitting in a room looking at each other blankly, wondering what a 'management review' meeting is & how they'd know if they were having one. In my view, their regular management meetings ARE management review, and often all that needs to happen is to make sure they're generating some records of their decisions/actions.
 

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G

Greg B

#62
JaneB said:
I voted for neither - I've rarely found a 'procedure' to tell managers how to manage has added much value, though there is some value in identifying the various levels & forums that management review takes place on, particularly in larger organisations.
It can, for example, happen at different levels. One tool I've often used successfully to show that is a matrix - I've attached an example, which is for a department that was successfully certified, but was part of a large corporation which wasn't. So we needed to show what happened where, and what the department could control, and what it couldn't.

In smaller organisations, I've usually found that one or both of having things defined in job descriptions and/or making sure there's something like a standing Agenda in place works fine. The absolute last thing you want is a bunch of managers sitting in a room looking at each other blankly, wondering what a 'management review' meeting is & how they'd know if they were having one. In my view, their regular management meetings ARE management review, and often all that needs to happen is to make sure they're generating some records of their decisions/actions.
Jane,
Welcome to the cove (another Aussie that isn't watching the games - lol). I like your matrix but will this really cover the clause in the Standard? In my post a while back in this thread I included a basic flow chart that dictates the points of the standard and will cover as a procedure. Of course we already discuss all of the other business topics that are in your matrix and maybe we should put something similar in our Manual to show our core business meetings. Good post and I hope your Karma reflects it ~grin~
 
J

JaneB

#63
Thanks for the good karma wishes Greg! And no, my attention span for games hoopla is very limited.

Re. your question:
Greg B said:
I like your matrix but will this really cover the clause in the Standard?
I don't fully understand the question. If you mean, have I used it and had client organisations certified without problem, the answer is yes, many. If you mean: does the document all by itself cover the requirements of clause 5.6, the answer is no, of course not.
But my belief & experience is that one doesn't need documentation to meet this clause. The only real measure is the implemented system itself (any documentation is only a component of the system, not the system itself.) And the implemented system has to be demonstrated.

I think many systems & people make too much of the 5.6 clause. Or they think that ALL the inputs & outputs have to take place in one single forum or procedure or meeting. They don't! They can, & often are, best dealt with in different forums, and sometimes by different people.

But I also don't think there is a 'single best way' to do it: it really depends on the organisation and what they have in place, & what's practical and workable. I've had clients certified using NO 'management review document' (policy or procedure whatsoever). For example, one company was having quarterly directors meetings (2 equal directors). So I just made sure their agenda covered the 5.6 inputs (which meant adding a couple of items only), and their minutes at least covered the outputs. Then coached them through the first couple... no problem. If I encountered an external auditor demanding a 'management review procedure' I'd fire the auditor as not being adequately able/intelligent enough to interpret the Standard.

I used this matrix in this instance, because it helped clarify who did what, when & where, & also met the requirements for the framework review (5.3.c) and wherever a single thing can meet multiple requirement, it's often efficient to do it that way.
 
G

Greg B

#64
Jane,

Great reply. You are correct we do not require a procedure for it as our business uses a 'Balanced Score car' and our various weekly, monthly and annual meetings cover all pf the things we need. We opted for the single page procedure I referred to only to meet the basics of the standard, Although as I said we do not need it as we can prove what we do. We could probably get rid of a lot of the stuff we used for the 2000 changeover as they are really hangovers from the last standard (things we could not let go of). We are slowly but surely depleting our paper based system but we have a few Senior managers that like to horde things. I tell them that are restrictive and auditable but still they cling..
 
M

Martijn

#65
Here's my two cents.

We've got a seperate procedure for mgt review, which i like, because it points out the significance a bit more, contents is pretty much like Gregs. We've very recently decided to stop our quarterly reviews though, because i felt they resemble "quality meetings" too much in my opinion, and in the end there were a lot of actions on the agenda, and very little strategic reviewing being done. Ongoing quality business needs to be in the normal meeting structure as far as i'm concerned, no special quality meetings, and once a year we look back on our fiscal year and let the management have their say at how things are going in the management review.
 
J

JaneB

#66
Martijn said:
Ongoing quality business needs to be in the normal meeting structure as far as i'm concerned, no special quality meetings
Could not agree with you more. It IS normal business, not something apart. When it becomes that, we move, I hope toward the day I'm dreaming of, when a/ the term 'quality meeting' stops being a dirty phrase and b/ has fallen into disuse. OK, now I'll get off my soapbox.:)
 
R

Richard Main

#67
The Management Review is documented in Policy Manual, which may flow down to second tier procedure and a third tier form to cover all the points as listed in the standard/Manual. The form must cover all the requirements noted in the Policy Manual and should be used as a point of discussion covering all the details among Managers or interested parties. But what is the most important is to summarize the completed form into a one page Executive Summary thus bringing the most pressing issues of the points listed in the QMS Standard/Manual to the attention of the President/CEO ect..., to keep a finger on the QMS pulse of the company and influence a cycle of continuous improvement from Management without the continuous improvement and Managements’ support a Management review is just paper in a file.
 
S

sal881vw

#68
Whilst in full agreement with Richard Main's post 67 (above). I recommend a procedure and a mention in the manual, given that, Management Review meetings are a periodical event (very frequent anually) that assess the quality of an organization. The procedure should address the elements of ISO 9001:2000 clause 5.6 Management Review, 5.6.2 Review input, 5.6.3 Review output.
 
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M

Madfox

#69
While I have a "less is better" mentality toward proceduralization, there is one thing I think should be systematic. That's the timeframe to hold the meeting.

For example, I was recently at a company that held mgt review in March and has their int audits in May/Jun in preparation for the ext audit during the summer. (The int auditor gets to sign off on mgt review, the ext auditor signs off on mgt review and int audit effectiveness regarding the int audit of mgt....)

Is that a valid mgt review regarding 5.6.2 a) regarding the "inputs of audits" when the next time mgt review is held the audit info (ext & int) is 9 months old?

I think a doc template is fine as a control for mgt review.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#70
For example, I was recently at a company that held mgt review in March and has their int audits in May/Jun in preparation for the ext audit during the summer.
I think that organizations that systematically schedule their internal audits just prior to a registrar surveillance audit are, for the most part, missing the point of what internal audits should accomplish. "Cleaning up house" (or trying to) just prior to an external audit shows that management doesn't get it. Very likely, the internal audit schedule matches exactly the same processes/areas that the CB is scheduled to audit, doesn't it?

(, the ext auditor signs off on mgt review and int audit effectiveness regarding the int audit of mgt....)
:mg: Say what? The CB auditor signs off on management review? Wouldn't that compromise the "separation of power"? :nope:
 
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