Manager IMS (9001, 14001, 18001) Position in Organisation Chart

M

maxximus

#1
Dear Colleagues

Im currently working (2 months i?m here) in middle size Organisation (cca.500 empl.) on position Manager of IMS or QA Manager. We are certified for ISO 9001, 14001 and OHSAS 18001. I?m the only Management representative for all three standards.

What is the point: In our Organisation, there is another person/position called Quality Manager, he has a team of specialist and quality inspectors. To my surpirse, when i started working here, they put my postion in Organization chart under this position - under postion Quality Manager, on Quality Department.

So, formally he is my boss , but i know that, this is in disagreement minimally with two standards - with ISO 9001 : Mngmnt representative must be a member of organization Managmement and 18001 : must be member (s) of Top Management. So , dear forum members, i?m asking for an advice, what are my options in this case?

Our CEO and the TOP Mngmnt are not such an experts on Intergrated management system, and it is very hard to always explain / fight with the TOP MNGMNT to accept my position (IMS Manager) as a position in Organization Management.

I worked before as Quality Manager and Management Rep. 7 years in previous company, so i?m not a greener. :D

Thanks and cheers
 
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K

kgott

#2
Dear Colleagues

Im currently working (2 months i?m here) in middle size Organisation (cca.500 empl.) on position Manager of IMS or QA Manager. We are certified for ISO 9001, 14001 and OHSAS 18001. I?m the only Management representative for all three standards.

What is the point: In our Organisation, there is another person/position called Quality Manager, he has a team of specialist and quality inspectors. To my surpirse, when i started working here, they put my postion in Organization chart under this position - under postion Quality Manager, on Quality Department.

So, formally he is my boss , but i know that, this is in disagreement minimally with two standards - with ISO 9001 : Mngmnt representative must be a member of organization Managmement and 18001 : must be member (s) of Top Management. So , dear forum members, i?m asking for an advice, what are my options in this case?

Our CEO and the TOP Mngmnt are not such an experts on Intergrated management system, and it is very hard to always explain / fight with the TOP MNGMNT to accept my position (IMS Manager) as a position in Organization Management.

I worked before as Quality Manager and Management Rep. 7 years in previous company, so i?m not a greener. :D

Thanks and cheers
Sounds to me like the main people do not understand the role of the management representative is. I would have thought the quality manager would also be the representative.

Perhaps there are other reasons such as they wanted someone to help the QA manager. Perhaps there political considerations regarding the appointment of the QA manager and they wanted someone else in there who has the knowledge, skills and experience to ensure things go right. Your the only one who will know their reasons for appointing you to the position.

Have you asked them why the QA manager is not also the management rep?
 
#3
When I entered my current organization, I was in the very same position you are, except that when I brought those requirements to the top management attention, he appointed the Quality Manager, Maintenance Manager and Safety Chief as management representatives of those systems, and I report to all of them. In the organization chart, I report directly to the QM and with a dotted line to the others. I once asked a third party auditor about this and he told me it's very common. Actually, he show me a form where there was contact information for the management representative and the contact person (that was me!).
 
M

maxximus

#4
Hi JH

Thanks for your reaction.

he appointed the Quality Manager, Maintenance Manager and Safety Chief as management representatives of those systems, and I report to all of them. In the organization chart, I report directly to the QM and with a dotted line to the others.
- but i think, in this case , you were not the Management rep., so, then it?s ok. this is different situation.
 
M

maxximus

#5
I would have thought the quality manager would also be the representative.
Me too. Before, i was working as Quality Manager and simultaneously as Management rep., in one fuction.

Anyway, in my current Organisation:

Quality Assurance Manager and Management Representative (9001, 14001 and 18001) - this is me

Quality Manager - Different person in our Company, with no competence within ISO standards , and that is the reason why they appointed me as Management Rep., because he doesn?t have the knowledge, skills and ability to be a Management Rep.

It is very complicated situation, especially for me. Because, as i said, i?m directly under the Quality Manager on his department, on the same level as, for example, metrology specialist or quality inspector. That?sick ! :frust:

You?re right, they don?t understand the role of Mngmnt rep.

But what can i do?

Thanks
 

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
You?re right, they don?t understand the role of Mngmnt rep.

But what can i do?

Thanks
Your job!?!?

Sorry for the blunt reply but by doing your job you should make yourself valued. You have a job to do in the company but you are focussing on levels. If you have sufficient authority to carry out your role and you do that well then you will be valued wherever you sit in the organization.

Before moving into quality I got shunted (demoted I thought) to work under one guy who did not know the business or perform as well for the company as I could. I got down about it and started to rebel a bit. I suddenly realised that his bosses and others in the company respected me for what I could do so I just did that as well as I could. It meant I never really reported to him and could sidestep him if I wanted to. That only started to happen when I just got on with my job.

Of course I was still glad to get out of there, not least because he was threatened by me and kept trying to stamp his authority on me in pathetic ways. Kind of like a little dog peeing under your desk in some pathetic show of dominance.

Not that you are in the same position but I do think the best you can do in most situations is your job a best as you can and the organization structure allows. Make it work for you if you can but if not just make yourself valued.
 
M

maxximus

#7
I know how it looks like, that i'm crying like a baby. But this is serious thing. We are not talking about the QMS (9001) only, there is also 18001 with little bit different requirements on Mngmnt Rep. Next year in april we?ll have recertification audit.
 

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
I'm not saying you are crying like a baby just that if you hit a brick wall over this then you might not have much choice but to find a way to live with it. Either that or look for another job. Stark choices and perhaps not the only ones.

I hope you get the resolution you want or need but sometimes top management don't make their decisions the way you want and that means plan B. As someone once said to me in my earliest working days that no one is going to offer me a higher position in the company without me proving it is warranted. If you do your job well and in doing it show not just worth but that the role is a higher level one than they originally put it then that is a possible plan B, C or whatever plan revision level you are at!

Good luck whatever happens.
 
M

maxximus

#9
I'm not saying you are crying like a baby just that if you hit a brick wall over this then you might not have much choice but to find a way to live with it. Either that or look for another job. Stark choices and perhaps not the only ones.

I hope you get the resolution you want or need but sometimes top management don't make their decisions the way you want and that means plan B. As someone once said to me in my earliest working days that no one is going to offer me a higher position in the company without me proving it is warranted. If you do your job well and in doing it show not just worth but that the role is a higher level one than they originally put it then that is a possible plan B, C or whatever plan revision level you are at!

Good luck whatever happens.
Thank you
 

drgnrider

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
... Management Representative (9001, 14001 and 18001) - this is me

Quality Manager - Different person in our Company, with no competence within ISO standards , and that is the reason why they appointed me as Management Rep., ....

It is very complicated situation, especially for me. Because, as i said, i?m directly under the Quality Manager on his department, on the same level as, for example, metrology specialist or quality inspector.
Sorry for the blunt reply but by doing your job you should make yourself valued. You have a job to do in the company but you are focussing on levels. If you have sufficient authority to carry out your role and you do that well then you will be valued wherever you sit in the organization.

... I suddenly realised that ? others in the company respected me for what I could do so I just did that as well as I could. It meant I never really reported to him and could sidestep him if I wanted to. That only started to happen when I just got on with my job.

... I do think the best you can do in most situations is your job a best as you can and the organization structure allows. Make it work for you if you can but if not just make yourself valued.
maxximus,

I was very intrigued by this post and waited to see how others responded, especially the ?Mngmnt representative must be a member of organization Managmement? part, since I am in almost the same situation. I started out as the metrology specialist (still am) under the QA Manager, then they added the additional duty of 9001 MR, then 14001 MR and now hearing that in the next 12-18 months, 18001 MR.

In my Lead Auditor training in 2012 I was told that MR did not have to be a "manager", could be the janitor, as long they have management?s backing, and this what makes them unofficially part of "management".

As TPMB4 said, do the best job you can, make yourself valued. :yes:

I was fortunate enough to see the e-mails between my Factory Director, the sector General Manager, and the U.S HR Director where they were discussing my new title and pay scale (one of two top hourly positions in the factory). My local employees and senior management know me and my abilities, granted a title, and pay-grade, of Manager would be nice, but for now? I do what I can to make the company succeed. I might see about that "upgrade" after 18001. ;)
 
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