Manager's version of the process contradicts personnel running the process

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#21
No documents are involved in the rosy picture you paint, but reality in practice has a few snags - primary being "mission creep" where the "players" add or subtract parameters to a process as time goes on. Without the document for a reference, mission creep invariably leads to changes from the original plan. (sort of like a game of "telephone")

The process you describe depends on accurate "word of mouth" training from shift to shift and generation of worker to generation of worker. Rarely does such dependence on undocumented processes result in consistent application of the original process.

The process you describe is akin to showing one manager the blueprint of a product, removing the blueprint, and requiring him to maintain consistent production of the product from one or more operators when no operator has access to the original blueprint. Possible, but not probable!

Which is why this clause
allows some organizations with relatively simple processes to do without documentation, while in others, the "as applicable" spectre looms large.

We are not privy to the exact process under consideration, but it seems reasonable to infer it is complicated enough to have at least two different versions. Simple mistake-proofing by having a written work instruction is worth an OFI at least, wouldn't you agree?
Wes,

You make excellent points. :agree1:

I am not opposed to documents supporting a process. But the OP pictured a situation where the process was not documented and where he apparently heard two different interpretations for this process. The point I was trying to make that even though the process was not documented, he could still note this as a nonconformity because the definitions were different.

Not knowing the complexity of the process and the required competencies, it may be necessary to document this process. But as we all know, having a documented process does not always assure compliance or consistency in practice.

Stijloor.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S Calibration Manager - Version 3 - Field for Calculation of Limits question Calibration and Metrology Software and Hardware 0
S Quality manager considering data science Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 19
K IMDS Chemistry Manager RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 0
C Quality Manager vs Warranty (service) Manager - Authorities & Responsibilities Customer Complaints 2
N ... and some have greatness thrust upon them - Training for novice QA manager ? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 6
A ISO 17025 Requirement 6.2 - Department Manager Testing Qualifications ISO 17025 related Discussions 1
F Position of Quality Manager - Can the organization's Quality Lead be shown as Quality Manager of the lab as well? ISO 17025 related Discussions 5
T Change in BRH (Brazilian Registration Holder) Technical Manager Other Medical Device Regulations World-Wide 2
T New role Quality Manager IATF 16949, new company, advise how to get started IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
CCaantley Stepping Down from my quality manager position soon After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 18
M QMS Efficiency KPI as a Manager. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
Sam Lazzara Notified Body CE Project Manager - Worst job ever? EU Medical Device Regulations 6
A ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 23
Kronos147 Quality Manager's Role in AS9100 Rev. D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
S Certified Manager of Software Testing (CMST) Certification Exam Career and Occupation Discussions 4
S Corporate Quality Manager keeping me out of the Management Review Meeting Management Review Meetings and related Processes 28
J Configuration Manager's Duties - AS9110 or AS9100 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
Q Supplier Accountable Manager Suspended - FAA 8130's while he is suspended? Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) Standards and Requirements 1
I Auto Industry Resume Template for a Quality Manager Career and Occupation Discussions 2
D Can the Plant Manager be our ISO Representative and an Internal Auditor? Internal Auditing 26
F Quality Manager - Conflict of interests in organisational structure AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
C Quality Assurance Manager ? Next Steps? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 10
S Quality Assurance Manager involvement in Management Review AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
L What are some SOPs that a Quality Manager should have? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
P Leadership Standards - New job as Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 9
K New Quality Manager Role Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 13
C Salary for a CI Manager Career and Occupation Discussions 7
A Shall I apply for this job position (Quality Manager)? Career and Occupation Discussions 5
Q QA Manager Responsibilities Career and Occupation Discussions 9
M Manager IMS (9001, 14001, 18001) Position in Organisation Chart ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
V Manager wont take the lead ....Leadership wont provide clarity....what to do? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
S R&D Documentation Manager Responsibilities Job Description Career and Occupation Discussions 1
J Lead Auditor and Quality Manager - Conflict of Interest? Career and Occupation Discussions 4
T What is the difference between Solid-Line Manager and Dotted Line Manager Career and Occupation Discussions 5
R QA Manager and Disciplining Employees for not following Processes Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 28
M Can a Quality Manager be a Lead ISO 9001 Auditor? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 37
L Quality Manager wants Internal Auditor to softgrade the findings - What shall I do? Internal Auditing 23
K What liability does the QA Manager/Management Rep hold? (US FDA environment) Career and Occupation Discussions 4
R Root Cause Analysis of Audit Findings - New Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 20
J Quality Manager's role in Customer and Supplier Complaints Customer Complaints 10
P Contract up in 1.5 months - How to approach my manager to discuss the future Career and Occupation Discussions 15
D Director vs. Manager - Roles in RA in a Medical Device Company ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
Y New Quality Manager looking for Tips and Quality Methodologies Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 8
P General Manager jumps down to directly contact my staff Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 7
R KRA's (Key Result Area) for a QA Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 8
K What would you do in the first 90 days of a new job as the Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 33
T QMR, EMR, OHSASMR should be manager or management team? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
1 Quality VP/Manager left - Educating his replacement Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 9
F What Training should a Quality Manager have? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 32
L Product Manager vs. Quality Manager: Who is right? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 14

Similar threads

Top Bottom