Mandatory to send to the Customers FMEA in a PPAP level 3 - Doubt

[tbsiva]

We also use a synthesis sheet through which we access how many failure modes are identified, in what severity and what is the RPN thresolds?? The synthesis sheet is used for review at each phase of development

When we go to suppliers site for review, we specifically review the PFMEA of supplier and verify whether all potential failure modes have been identified and actions are in place to resolve??

 

[try2makeit]

I am just shaking my head at this. How can some companies get through a Certification/Surveillance audit with this "proprietary" action of not submitting a PFMEA in a Level 3 PPAP, when the Standard clearly states it has to be done. Or is my German not allowing me to understand this correctly.

99.9% of our Customers require a PFMEA with their PPAP. If I was to tell them, no can't do because of a Proprietary issue, they'd tell me to go were the Sun don't shine and loose their business.

 

[Jim Wynne]

I am just shaking my head at this. How can some companies get through a Certification/Surveillance audit with this "proprietary" action of not submitting a PFMEA in a Level 3 PPAP, when the Standard clearly states it has to be done. Or is my German not allowing me to understand this correctly.

99.9% of our Customers require a PFMEA with their PPAP. If I was to tell them, no can't do because of a Proprietary issue, they'd tell me to go were the Sun don't shine and loose their business.

Like almost everything else in the customer-supplier relationship, this is a matter of negotiation. Customers can waive or amend PPAP requirements as they see fit.

 

[try2makeit]

Thanks Jim for your reply. We have a PPAP waiver on file for the 1 or 2 customer that do not require a PPAP. But even our non-automotive customers have adopted to the automotive PPAP process. I have not yet come across a automotive Customer of ours, that has signed off on a incomplete PPAP or said they did not want a PFMEA.

And on another note, why would you not let your Customer see your PFMEA? I actually have had some very valid input and teachings if you might say from Customers when I first started this position on this subject, that I might not have found out or learned otherwise. Heck I'm still learning....

 

[Jim Wynne]

Thanks Jim for your reply. We have a PPAP waiver on file for the 1 or 2 customer that do not require a PPAP. But even our non-automotive customers have adopted to the automotive PPAP process. I have not yet come across a automotive Customer of ours, that has signed off on a incomplete PPAP or said they did not want a PFMEA.

And on another note, why would you not let your Customer see your PFMEA? I actually have had some very valid input and teachings if you might say from Customers when I first started this position on this subject, that I might not have found out or learned otherwise. Heck I'm still learning....

I don't know why some companies consider PFMEAs confidential. Some I know of don't want to share FMEAs but readily share their control plans, which leads me to believe that the primary (mostly unfounded) fear is exposure due to divulging what the supplier considers risky.

A large US vehicle manufacturer I know of allows PPAPs to be submitted without PFMEAs, but only if the document has been reviewed and approved by a customer representative first. The supplier has to bring it in, or the company has someone review it at the supplier's location.

 

[ralphsulser]

I have prepared and submitted many, many PPAPs over the years and have never had a problem complying with the requirements of the automotive customers specific requirements. Ford required the DFMEA in the PPAP package that I had to contact and obtain from the Ford Design Engineering Manager. If, I did not have it, the consuming Ford plant would reject my entire PPAP submission by just looking at the index contents.
The previous statement that these do not really contain any confidential information that is not already out there, is correct too.

 

[Citizen Kane]

Hi !

In our location, the customer can view the FMEA only in our location. So, we don't allow any copies to be sent outside the company to the customer. You should explain that this are the internal policies of the company regarding information security about your internal processes. To send is not mandatory and, for us, this response was not an blocking point and was accepted without discussions.

 

[Stijloor]

Hi !

In our location, the customer can view the FMEA only in our location. So, we don't allow any copies to be sent outside the company to the customer. You should explain that this are the internal policies of the company regarding information security about your internal processes. To send is not mandatory and, for us, this response was not an blocking point and was accepted without discussions.

See post #26...

Citizen, nothing is THAT secret...

Stijloor.

 

[vanputten]

Citizen Kane:

Since you are telling your customer and not asking for their approval to withhold those documents, you should try that approach with anything the customer asks.

Maybe consider an internal policy that nothing is provided to the customer and that all documents and data are only available for review on site.

Quality Management Principle #8 (Mutually beneficial customer - supplier relationships) is way over rated isn't it?

 

[Jim Wynne]

Citizen Kane:

Since you are telling your customer and not asking for their approval to withhold those documents, you should try that approach with anything the customer asks.

Maybe consider an internal policy that nothing is provided to the customer and that all documents and data are only available for review on site.

Quality Management Principle #8 (Mutually beneficial customer - supplier relationships) is way over rated isn't it?

Before the contract is signed or the PO is accepted, everything is negotiable except perhaps legal and regulatory requirements. Do you believe that customers should have unilateral control over contract requirements? Are you suggesting that customers should not have the option to waive requirements as they see fit?