Material Certs (Material Certifications) - What are they??

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#11
ScottB said:
JW, that is exactly why they ??? the cert, I didn't have a lab accredidation to include in the ppap I sent to customer.
Then they weren't questioning the "cert"; they were questioning the lack of accreditation evidence--they're two separate PPAP elements.

ScottB said:
Yes I know you both said what I had was a test report. It still doesn't tell me what the difference is between that and a cert.
Here's what I said in an earlier post:
It appears that the document is a test report, which is what you want for PPAP purposes. In some instances, the terms "material certification" and "material test report" are considered synonymous, but ususally incorrectly. What you don't want is a document that says, "We certify that the material supplied meets the relevant specifications" without telling what the relevant specifications are, or offering objective evidence (actual test results) of having met them. In other words, if there are no actual test results, or even evidence that testing has been done, then it's essentially worthless.
I explained that A) what you described is a material test report; B) it's what's required for PPAP; C) that "cert" and "material test report" are sometimes used interchangeably, but a "cert" (aka "certificate of compliance" or "certificate of conformance") might not include test data, in which case it's worthless.

ScottB said:
Should I have another document in a supplier ppap that says "material cert" ?
There is nothing in the standard PPAP requirements that calls for any kind of "cert." Look at the requirement from page 5 of the 3rd Edition PPAP manual):
The supplier shall have records of material...test results for tests specified on the design record or Control Plan. (Emphasis added)
See, no mention of any "certs."
Can anyone provide a copy of a material cert so I can see what it looks like?
Forget about material certs. You want material test reports, but remember, material test reports are sometimes labeled and referred to as material certifications. It's the presence of test data that makes the difference, not what the document is called.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
S

ScottB

#12
JW, thank you so much. I think I got it now. I just misunderstood your previous posts ! Shame on me :bonk: Thanks again.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
At the risk of raising hackles at this late date in the thread, let me suggest the concept of what a customer means by a "material cert" is an issue which should have been brought up in Contract Review with the customer before accepting the order. That is the time to ask questions. Do not feel that you will embarrass yourself by asking such seeming "basic questions." An overwhelming majority of the purchasing clerks who check off the box on a purchase order for "material certs" have no idea what they are and wouldn't recognize one if they saw it.

The earlier in the entire process you clear up all the "niggling" [shout out to Jim] questions, the sooner you can make arrangements with the material supplier to give you exactly what the customer needs to satisfy him.

In my machining business, we dealt with many exotic materials and exact identification and analysis of materials was crucial. Most times, we cut off "coupons" (material samples) from the stock and had them tested by an independent laboratory to confirm chemical analysis and physical properties of the material cited on a supplier's material cert. In dealing with metals, especially, it is often necessary to maintain traceability to a specific "heat" of material. As the specific criteria of the material specifications become more important to the function of a product, the issue of completeness and reliability of material certs from a supplier become a "make or break issue" for approval of a supplier.

:topic: I bought a "brand name" stainless steel whistling teakettle in a supermarket promotion last year. The heatproof shield on the removable whistle cap was held on to the stainless steel cap with a rivet. Shame on the manufacturer - the rivet is unplated plain steel and rusted through in 3 months. I drilled it out and replaced with an appropriate fastener, but the lack of attention to detail boggles the mind. I guess that manufacturer didn't think of everything when he outsourced the cap manufacture to an offshore company. Certainly, a "material cert" was not part of the documentation he required.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#15
Wes Bucey said:
At the risk of raising hackles at this late date in the thread, let me suggest the concept of what a customer means by a "material cert" is an issue which should have been brought up in Contract Review with the customer before accepting the order. That is the time to ask questions. Do not feel that you will embarrass yourself by asking such seeming "basic questions." An overwhelming majority of the purchasing clerks who check off the box on a purchase order for "material certs" have no idea what they are and wouldn't recognize one if they saw it.

The earlier in the entire process you clear up all the "niggling" [shout out to Jim] questions, the sooner you can make arrangements with the material supplier to give you exactly what the customer needs to satisfy him.
All good advice, but with PPAP, the requirements are spelled out, and hardly anyone pays any attention to them. The automotive biz is different from mainline stuff, and your observation regarding purchasing clerks is a bit off the mark I think; in automotive situations it's usually the purchasing people who are responsible for obtaining the correct material documentation, and if they're not familiar with the requirements, they get familiar in a hurry.


Wes Bucey said:
In my machining business, we dealt with many exotic materials and exact identification and analysis of materials was crucial. Most times, we cut off "coupons" (material samples) from the stock and had them tested by an independent laboratory to confirm chemical analysis and physical properties of the material cited on a supplier's material cert.
This is extreme, of course, and the strategy should of course be to develop reliable material suppliers whose documentation and testing can be trusted.
Wes Bucey said:
As the specific criteria of the material specifications become more important to the function of a product, the issue of completeness and reliability of material certs from a supplier become a "make or break issue" for approval of a supplier.
Not if you're going to have the material independently tested anyway
.

Wes Bucey said:
...the manufacturer didn't think of everything when he outsourced the cap manufacture to an offshore company. Certainly, a "material cert" was not part of the documentation he required.
Of course, the material might have been exactly what the purchaser specified, in which case the material cert would only provide objective evidence of a poor decision.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#16
Wes Bucey said:
In my machining business, we dealt with many exotic materials and exact identification and analysis of materials was crucial. Most times, we cut off "coupons" (material samples) from the stock and had them tested by an independent laboratory to confirm chemical analysis and physical properties of the material cited on a supplier's material cert.
JSW05 said:
This is extreme, of course, and the strategy should of course be to develop reliable material suppliers whose documentation and testing can be trusted.
Wes Bucey said:
As the specific criteria of the material specifications become more important to the function of a product, the issue of completeness and reliability of material certs from a supplier become a "make or break issue" for approval of a supplier.
JSW05 said:
Not if you're going to have the material independently tested anyway
.
The key word, of course, was "crucial" - sometimes we were dealing with bone screws and other things that went inside human bodies.

In terms of "coupons" and independent testing:
Our business dealt with products for many applications which had life, health, safety implications, and identification and traceability were high priority items with our customers. We did not have EVERY coupon tested, but we did keep a coupon of the raw material with the Quality records of every job in the event a question would ever arise. Thankfully, none did, but then, I come from a long line of "measure twice, cut once" folk!


In literally hundreds of "redundant analyses" of materials, I can remember only two instances where the independent analysis did not concur (within reasonable tolerances) with the cert supplied with the material.

Tracing back in one case, we discovered that "heats" of the material had been mixed, resulting in nearly an entire "grade" difference between what we ordered and what we received.

The other case was more arcane and had to do with physical properties of the material related to the heat-treating, hardening, and tempering of the material - stuff on which metallurgists dote and the rest of us look for margaritas.

The first case was a routine redundant check. The second case was sent out for analysis on the second day after we began production because our machine operator said, "Something's not right. I don't like the way this stuff runs."
 
G

Garry

#18
Standard for contents of a material test report

Hi there...I was wondering whether there is a standard document explaining the minimum contents of a material test report (Mill Certificate)? Something like EN 10204 3.1B but in ISO for Aluminium products.
 

Ettore

Quite Involved in Discussions
#20
Garry said:
Hi there...I was wondering whether there is a standard document explaining the minimum contents of a material test report (Mill Certificate)? Something like EN 10204 3.1B but in ISO for Aluminium products.
Many of attached standard explaining the minimum contest of a material test reports for Mill certificate
ISO IEC 17025:2005 is more general
5.10.3 Test reports
5.10.3.1 ..... test reports shall, where necessary for the interpretation of the test results, include the
following:
a) deviations from, additions to, or exclusions from the test method, and information on specific test conditions, such as environmental
conditions;
b) where relevant, a statement of compliance/non-compliance with requirements and/or specifications;
c) where applicable, a statement on the estimated uncertainty of measurement; information on uncertainty is needed in test reports when it is
relevant to the validity or application of the test results, when a client’s instruction so requires, or when the uncertainty affects compliance to a
specification limit;
d) where appropriate and needed, opinions and interpretations (see 5.10.5);
e) additional information which may be required by specific methods, clients or groups of clients.
5.10.3.2 In addition to the requirements listed in 5.10.2 and 5.10.3.1, test reports containing the results of sampling shall include the following,
where necessary for the interpretation of test results:
a) the date of sampling;
b) unambiguous identification of the substance, material or product sampled (including the name of the manufacturer, the model or type of
designation and serial numbers as appropriate);
c) the location of sampling, including any diagrams, sketches or photographs;
d) a reference to the sampling plan and procedures used;
e) details of any environmental conditions during sampling that may affect the interpretation of the test results;
f) any standard or other specification for the sampling method or procedure, and deviations, additions to or exclusions from the specification
concerned.By
 

Attachments

Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
E Record Retention - Raw Material (Steel Certs) Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 3
G TS 16949 External Lab for Raw Material Certs for PPAPs IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 26
A Are RoHS compliance certs sufficient to qualify material? RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 6
T Difference between IMDS, RoHS, REACH-SVHC, Material composition declaration certs. RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 13
J Example of a defined procedure for carrying out Material Review Board (MRB) Manufacturing and Related Processes 0
S Advice on how to reduce overhead of handling non-conforming material Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
R AS9102 FAI Change in Material / Process Supplier AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
S Predicate Material 510(k) US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
S Predicate Material 510(k) Medical Device and FDA Regulations and Standards News 3
lanley liao Who can share these material with me ? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
M Documents to be included in 1.3 Material check in PPA report APQP and PPAP 4
R MRB (Material Review Board) Process using MS Sharepoint or MS Teams Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
M Material incoming to the production process reflected in PFMEA FMEA and Control Plans 9
R Do we need issue ECN (Engineering Change Notice) towards updated Material Specification? Design and Development of Products and Processes 2
Q Change the shape of the raw material FAI AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
S Regrind Material in Medical Devices ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
Anonymous16-2 Dietary Supplement Raw Material/Component Storage and Production Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
H Expired packaging material - Expired unused Tyvek pouches Other Medical Device and Orthopedic Related Topics 2
A Design History File - Not ready to share the design drawings or Bill of Material US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 2
D Class 3 Device - Change of supplier of material Canada Medical Device Regulations 6
D List A IVD - Change to material supplier EU Medical Device Regulations 3
Skooma Deburring and Tolerances - Is there a Standard for deburring or removing material? Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
D Can PFMEA be used in disposition of NC material? ISO 14971 - Medical Device Risk Management 4
DuncanGibbons Manufacturing Plan vs Material Specification vs Control Plan Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
Jane's Like-for-like critical raw material change qualification - type of testing/ number of lots required ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
L AS5553 Clause 3.1.7 e "Control packaging material ..................reused" AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 0
J Raw material certificates - CC - Safety products - Sheet metal stamping IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
C Manufacturing overages & nonconforming material documentation ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 3
M Changing supplier of critical raw material (III class device) Other Medical Device and Orthopedic Related Topics 1
I Where can I beg, steal (just kidding of course) or borrow good training material on the ISO 9001:2015 standard? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
DMLqms Material for laboratory use or Medical Device? EU Medical Device Regulations 2
C Material from outside CER evaluation period CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 8
F AS9100D, raw material standards are a requirement for manufacturing? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
6 Management of SDS and Hazardous Material Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 2
L ASQ CBA biomedical auditor - CBA primer material is enough to study? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
DuncanGibbons Are there any aerospace specific requirements for material resource planning? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 1
T Was Just told we could ONLY buy material for AS9100 customers if the DISTRIBUTION house is AS9100 / AS9120 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
C Clean room injection molding, raw material mixing requirements ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 2
C Raw material Mixing / Preparation for clean room class C injection molding Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 1
P GM TWO (Temporary Work Order) - Is there a specific GM format for the TWO# to be sent with the material? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
R ASQ reference material clarification - Spiral bound materials allowed in ASQ Exam? Professional Certifications and Degrees 1
Manix Supplied Steel Material Testing Norms and Requirements Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 1
R Material safety data sheet (MSDS) related clause in IATF 16949 manual IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 17
K Interpretation of significant change - material change Canada Medical Device Regulations 3
M Raw stock material testing discrepancy using an XRF (x-ray fluorescence) analyzer Manufacturing and Related Processes 7
W Scope of MRB (Material Review Board) Responsibilities Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 5
M Conformal Coating & AS9102 - Is conformal coating material a COTS part AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
M Maximum Height for the stored material or stock materials Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 1
F Mig Welded Components - IMDS International Material Data System RoHS, REACH, ELV, IMDS and Restricted Substances 1
K ISO 9001 Requirements for Raw Material Supplier Assessment and Approval ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6

Similar threads

Top Bottom