Measurement Equipment - Identification of Calibration Status

R

ReworkIT

#11
What about shops where they only use color as a means to show calibration? No dates are on the gauge/box etc. People are assigned to issue gauges with a colored marker of similar device and then go around and pick thos up and replace them with a similar gauge with another color marker. What does it matter to the operator? They are given a gauge with a marker and all their gauges have the same color (so it's obvious when they get mixed colors, they can flag it to a supervisor)...
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#12
Re: New to Calibration - Four Questions

<snip> The standard lets you do it a foolish and wasteful way as well...as long as it is done. <snip>
Over the 30 or so years I have been in business systems I have seen so many ways companies identify measurement and test equipment that I have forgotten a lot of the different ways. One thing I will say is that what in one company may appear wasteful, may not actually be. For example, it may be that a complicated "wasteful" system was put in place because of the cost of a failure at some time which cost the company WAY more than their complicated system. This is especially true in regulated industries.

That's one of the good things about discussions like this one - Many people give their opinions and discuss their specific way of handling something like control of measurement and test equipment - Understanding that every company and every industry is different is important.

:2cents:
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#13
Re: New to Calibration - Four Questions

That's one of the good things about discussions like this one - Many people give their opinions and discuss their specific way of handling something like control of measurement and test equipment - Understanding that every company and every industry is different is important.

:2cents:
Couldn't agree more. Well said.

I just get rubbed the wrong way when the words "Finding" or "NC" get thrown in the mix when they have no real basis. There exists a minimum need...meet it or exceed it however works best for you (not how works best for the auditor's experience).
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#14
Re: New to Calibration - Four Questions

Yeah - One of the things that keyed me on this was ReworkIT's post on color coding, which I had forgotten about but that I have seen. I also remembered a client I suggested a simplified system for and we had a talk about why they designed such a time consuming mt&e calibration system - It had come about after a very expensive recall. As they explained it to me, I could better understand their reasoning.

Auditor wise, I guess it's been that way for so many years that I'm used to it. I've dealt with so many over the years that I know it is just the way it is. One has to be ready. The first thing I did when a company would want me to work for them as a consultant in an implementation project was to confirm that they understood that they would have to have a dedicated person for me to work with as it was essentially a knowledge transfer/training on the related standard(s). That way when an auditor went rogue they had someone there who was ready to say "show me where it says that" and/or "you're here to audit, not consult" in a polite but firm way.

I also can understand the temptation as an auditor to want to say things like "... Well, I've seen companies do it like this..." because the auditor wants to try to help. I even admit I did that from time to time. That said, I have run into some really hard to work with auditors over the years, some of my experiences I have posted about (such as the "ineffective internal audits" finding).

But, I think most auditors are just trying to do their job as best they can.
 

dwperron

Trusted Information Resource
#15
Re: New to Calibration - Four Questions

"You are equating "identified" and 'every operator must be able to identify'. These are not equal."

In the plants where I have been involved it is part of the work instructions for the operator to verify that the tool they are using has a valid calibration prior to use. Of course, that applies when calibrated tools are required for the job.

So just saying that "the tools are identified" is adequate just doesn't make sense to me if the operators don't know that they have valid calibrations. Yes, something as simple as color coding based on calibration status is adequate so that every operator is able to verify the status.

What I was saying is that simply stating that there is a calibration record somewhere that shows the status for a given serial number can work, but I would expect you to be able to show me how you make it work.
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
Re: New to Calibration - Four Questions

I think the OP has been handled from a number of sides, so I'll risk going :topic:

I actually prefer that the auditor chimes in with "I've seen other companies do it another way". As long as they don't then write me up for not doing it that way.
I'll take prepaid consulting almost anytime. If I don't think it applies, so be it.
If it does, I've learned something and may do better as a result.

Auditors "consulting" is a topic that's been hashed around here on the forum often.
To me, the only negative to it is when the auditor requires that you accept what they say as gospel. I'll take input...just not requirements above and beyond the standard and the corresponding NC's to follow.
 

Lyndonl

Starting to get Involved
#17
Re: New to Calibration - Four Questions

Let me put on my auditor hat.

IATF 16949 says that calibrated measuring equipment must be "identified in order to determine their status".

You tell me that you use the serial number or some other ID number, and that you can look up the status of the tool in a database.

I say "Fine. Now show me your process that has an operator look up and determine the status of every tool they use before they use it." Because if the serial number is the only way to determine the status then you must use it on every tool every day.
Not very practical, but it could work.

This is why companies apply labels to tools, so that the status is quickly and easily determined.
My hat gives me a slightly different perspective.
A gauge number marked on a gauge and listed in a register is also a form of identification. Given that most operators are not in control of the tools and equipment they use, it is reasonable to expect the Quality department to monitor this register for gauges approaching the out of calibration date and take steps to fix this.
I agree in most cases labels are the way to go, an easy quick solution. In some work environments, however, it is not possible.
 
R

ReworkIT

#18
Since we could go :topic: also, can I suggest that an admin start a new topic about asking audit questions? From the OP's initial post: "As an auditor for Automotive I have always ask operators how they know the gauge they are using is in Calibration."

From what my training tells me and what I understand, this can be an incorrect thing to ask operators.
 

dwperron

Trusted Information Resource
#19
As an auditor / auditee (oddity?) I find this a common and proper question. For instance, the company where I currently work has desk instructions regarding calibration responsibilities. for Users it states:

Users: Any member of a Dept. that uses or possesses M&TE.
 Complete Control and Calibration of Measuring and Test Equipment (OP065W)
 Ensure M&TE being used in your measurement processes are in a current state of calibration and/or in a proper status
 Ensure M&TE is secured, handled, and utilized in a manner that does not affect the measurement or physical characteristics
 Follow all local practices and procedures covering the control of M&TE
 Know the different calibration statuses and their proper uses (Calibration Label, NPCR, Standby, NCR)

So asking how a user determines the calibration status is a legitimate question.

It is not enough to know that an organization has a policy concerning identifying the calibration status of a tool. An auditor looks for objective evidence that the policy is implemented. The questions serve as a proper tool for this.
 
R

ReworkIT

#20
Excellent points - of qualification about your organization's requirements - none of which were stated in the OPs initial statement. As such, I don't believe, without these pre-requisites being in place, that the question is proper.
 
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