Minor Nonconformity for Lack of Job Descriptions in ISO 9001

[Marcelo]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

The auditor asked if we had job descriptions, and we proceded to show him our employee manual, which has the shop floor personnel listed. He asked if there was a job description for my role (process engineer, manufacturing engineer, interim quality manager etc....) and he also asked if there was a job description for the president of the company.
In the nc, all he listed was exactly what i wrote in my previous post....his notes state that there are no job descriptions listed for the Office Manager, Quality Manager, Process Engineer, and President

Best solution - change auditor.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

"Base level job descriptions should be developed to meet the requirements of a specific job to show the competency needed on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience in accordance with 6.2.1 General of ISO9001:2008"

The key word which gives away his bias is "should"...

Please contact your representative at the office of your CB, and talk with them stating that you cannot find this requirement in ISO 9001, 6.2.1 nor any definition of job description in a requirement. Your own QMS doesn't specify the need for job descriptions and therefore, you wish to have this NC removed from the record. Alos put it in writing to them, get the Operations manager's email information and copy them. I'd also ask that auditor not return due to their lack of objectivity and misunderstanding of the basic ISO requirements.

 

[sliebman]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

No question about that, we are already going to ask for a new auditor next time around, question is, is this worth fighting with the registrar? If we were to submit, we would have to develop job descriptions for the above mentioned roles...which we have talked about, they will be vague and brief due to the everchanging nature of what the folks in a small company are required to do (which hat shall i wear today?!)

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

Outside auditor, it was for our full recert audit. We are ISO 9001, with exception to the design elements. This is a new auditor to us, and he usually audits Aerospace.
He cited 6.2.1 ISO clause, and his finding was
"Base level job descriptions should be developed to meet the requirements of a specific job to show the competency needed on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience in accordance with 6.2.1 General of ISO9001:2008"

Keep in mind, that we do have shop floor employees job descriptions writen in much detail for all employees....plus an org chart....plus a large matrix which lists all employees, and about 20 different catagories/skills that we review every year....

For those sports fans who are keeping score at home, here's the entirety of ISO 9001:2008 6.2.1:

Personnel performing work affecting conformity to product requirements shall be competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience.
NOTE Conformity to product requirements can be affected directly or indirectly by personnel performing any task within the quality management system.

Your auditor is definitely misguided. He or she was apparently looking for evidence that some evaluation of competence is being or has been done. There are many ways to satisfy this requirement, but there is nothing anywhere that says there must be job descriptions. Job descriptions don't create competence.

I would talk this over with the auditor and then appeal the finding if that doesn't get you anywhere.

 

[qusys]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

The auditor asked if we had job descriptions, and we proceded to show him our employee manual, which has the shop floor personnel listed. He asked if there was a job description for my role (process engineer, manufacturing engineer, interim quality manager etc....) and he also asked if there was a job description for the president of the company.
In the nc, all he listed was exactly what i wrote in my previous post....his notes state that there are no job descriptions listed for the Office Manager, Quality Manager, Process Engineer, and President

The auditor was wrong in posing question to checl the conformitity vs 5.5.1 of ISO 9001.
He would have asked how the top mgmt ensure that responsibilities and authorithies are defined and communicated across the organization.

He immediately started asking for job description as a requirement of the standard, so he was wrong.
He should have better investigated how you are compliant to that requirement checking at the evidences you showed to him.
The ncn is also written in a bad way as just said.
I think you can appeal it to the registrar.
A curiosity: did he raise other non conformity, major / minor? Which , if possible. Are you satisfied with him?

 

[sliebman]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

COMPLETELY unsatified with him, he didnt, in my opionion, even look in the right places or ask the right questions for a variety of other areas....too many to note. We did get 2 other minor nc's, both of which i do agree with. He did at one point, while auditing HR, ask to see employee evaluations, which we said no to.....we have a separate yearly review, which is fully documented to show that all employees are reviewed for their effectiveness of the QMS, yada yada yada.
At one point he also started referring to ADA (American Disability act), and what needs to be done for that, which of course has nothing to do with ISO9001.....
We have been certified since April of 2001, and i have never had an auditor look at what he looked at, and not look at what he not looked at
Most of our auditors have previously mentioned that they were impressed with our training system with all the courses and offerings we have for a small company

 

[J0anne]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

In Reply to Parent Post by sliebman

"Base level job descriptions should be developed to meet the requirements of a specific job to show the competency needed on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience in accordance with 6.2.1 General of ISO9001:2008"

As I said in my first post, this is not a correctly defined NC.

The auditor should cite the clause and specify the findings to justify why you have not fulfilled that particular clause.

 

[Big Jim]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

Although I agree that this is not a well written nonconformance, the auditor is not completely off base.

Your position is a hold over from a misunderstanding of ISO 9001:2000 before the note in 6.2.1 was added.

True, job descriptions are not specifically required by ISO 9001:2008, something akin to it IS REQUIRED.

6.2.2 a The organization shall . . . determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting conformity to product requirements . . .

The note from 6.2.1 cited by others provides some illumination here.

NOTE: Conformity of product requirements can be affected directly or indirectly by personnel performing ANY task within the quality management system (emphasis added).

If you choose to use some other way than job descriptions to define the competencies for management, you can do so. Make sure that any written procedures you may have on the topic don't pin you down though.

The point is that you do have to define the needed competencies for ALL employees that have anything to do with the quality management system.

 

[AndyN]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

is this worth fighting with the registrar?

Yes, yes, yes. It's not a "fight", if it is, you're with the wrong CB!

The only way for a CB to know how their auditors "actually" perform is by feeding back this kind of non-value busy work. If they don't consider this and your request for a change - because of the non-value nc - and then take some action (why not ask them for it, they're a supplier after all?), you have good reason to take your certificate elsewhere.

IMHO, the fact that they have an auditor who would even do audits like that is a bit concerning...

 

[J0anne]

Re: Nonconformity for lack of job descriptions in ISO 9001

Although I agree that this is not a well written nonconformance, the auditor is not completely off base.

The auditor has not said what the NC is and has offered a solution on how things should be done. This is not the job of an auditor.