MR Inputs (9.3.2) - "Monitoring and Measurement Results" vs. "Process Performance"

Sebastian

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#11
What about c) is related only to process whose output is product/service delivered/sold to customer?
E.g. let's say process is called Production and performance is evaluated through metric called scrap level
While d) is related to other system processes, determined as required by section 4.4.1, except process referred in c)
E.g. let's say one of processes is called Purchasing and performance is evaluated through metric called delayed orders (goods received after delivery date given in orders send to suppliers).
 
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Tagin

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#12
What about c) is related only to process whose output is product/service delivered/sold to customer?
E.g. let's say process is called Production and performance is evaluated through metric called scrap level
While d) is related to other system processes, determined as required by section 4.4.1, except process referred in c)
E.g. let's say one of processes is called Purchasing and performance is evaluated through metric called delayed orders (goods received after delivery date given in orders send to suppliers).
The wording in the standard is very poor and unclear. Fortunately, TS9002:2016 helps us a lot, because each of the bullet points in 9.3.2c is therein referenced to specific clauses in the standard:
c) information on the performance and effectiveness of the quality management system:
1) customer satisfaction (see ISO 9001:2015, 9.1.2) and feedback from other relevant interested parties (see ISO 9001:2015, 4.2);
2) the extent to which quality objectives have been met (see ISO 9001:2015, 6.2);
3) process performance and conformity of products and services (see ISO 9001:2015, 4.4 and 8.6);
4) nonconformities and corrective actions (see ISO 9001:2015, 10.2);
5) monitoring and measurement results (see ISO 9001:2015, 9.1.1);
6) audit results, including, as appropriate, the results of internal (see ISO 9001:2015, 9.2), customer, regulatory body, or certification body, audits;
7) performance of external providers (see ISO 9001:2015, 8.4)
So, 9.3.2c.3 refers to 4.4 & 8.6, which are 'QMS and its Processes' & 'Release of Product and Services'.
9.3.2c.5 refers to 9.1.1, which is "The organization shall determine: what needs to be monitored and measured; how, etc."
 

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#13
My mistake. Not c) but 3), and not d) but 5)
Thank you Tagin and it seems my understanding was right.
8.6 is clearly "production" related, while 9.1.1 is "all".
 
#14
If you're dealing with a very (very) small service company (e.g. janitorial, mechanic, etc.), could c.3, c.5, and e all be the same item?
  • In a case I'm working on, they provide a service, and their measure of process performance is financial.
    • We've discussed creating internal metrics for performance (e.g. job takt time), and they're not interested.
    • They don't believe it will provide them extra value
    • We're not talking about NASA here. It's a small service shop where the general manager knows all customers by name and customers wander in to his office to shake his hand and talk about golf.
  • With evaluating the effectiveness of actions taken, the size of the company doesn't justify the creation of extravagant risk registers. We're talking about an office of less than 5 people.
    • Their stance is they watch financials. They identify risks in their SWOT, and they address the risks as appropriate. If their financials are meeting their goals, then they see their actions were appropriate to address the risks.

So they have customer-facing satisfaction metrics (Quality Objectives for c.2), and they have financial metrics (Performance metrics for 9.1)

As I look at their Management Review, a review of the financials appears to meet all the requirements for c.3, c.5, and e. Obviously creating more and more metric reviews would goad them into being more structured, however at a fundamental level, they meet the bare minimum requirements for ISO 9001, unless I'm missing something

Am I?
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
#15
Welcome Drew!

I wouldn't accept financial metrics as a process performance metric because there is no way to know if a good or poor financial outcome is due to the janitorial service processes or something else. If they can connect the dots between process performance (delivery of services) then it would seem they do understand if they are performing the processes well or not, just not identifying as such as a metric.

One good perspective is that from the process level. If a janitor can say he/she is doing a good job because of criteria xyz, that's great. Do they know what the financial are? I wouldn't expect them to.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
#16
As I look at their Management Review, a review of the financials appears to meet all the requirements for c.3, c.5, and e. Obviously creating more and more metric reviews would goad them into being more structured, however at a fundamental level, they meet the bare minimum requirements for ISO 9001, unless I'm missing something

Am I?
Big time. I don't know of a single for-profit company that doesn't review financial performance, somehow, ISO 9001 or not.

ISO 9001 requires a review of many items BEYOND financial performance exactly to ensure top management is aware of it's customer satisfaction performance. In the real world, organizations will ALWAYS attempt to maximize profit and can attempt to do so by, e.g.:

  • shortcutting the service delivery
  • purchasing lesser quality supplies
  • scamming employees from worked hours
  • misstating services rendered.
  • etc. etc. etc...

all of these would "positively improve financial performance" while degrading the customer experience/satisfaction. So, in no uncertain terms, financial performance review is not within the intent of a management review, as stated in 9001.
 
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