MR (Management Representative) also doing Internal Audits?

A

aeropilot

#1
Dear all,

Can the management representative also carry out internal audits in his own organization?

I know that we are not supposed to audit our own work. Any way of getting around this?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
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#2
Re: MR also doing internal audits?

Dear all,

Can the management representative also carry out internal audits in his own organization?

I know that we are not supposed to audit our own work. Any way of getting around this?

Thanks in advance.
As long as he/she does not audit their own work. There is nothing to get around. I would be happy to have someone else able to perform IA
 
A

arios

#3
Re: MR also doing internal audits?

As long as he/she does not audit their own work. There is nothing to get around.
I concur with Coury's opinion, and in the practice this approach is used once in a while, probably more often on smaller companies.

Since typically the QA Manager gets appointed as Management rep. you could have this person auditing processes outside the direct QA jurisdiction, perhaps areas like production planning, H.R., manufacturing, purchasing process (but probably not supplier selection), and so on.

The areas that I would leave outside the audit scope for this person could be: Corrective/Preventive Action, Management Review, Internal Audits, QA function, Management responsibility, etc.
 
#5
Dear all,

Can the management representative also carry out internal audits in his own organization?

I know that we are not supposed to audit our own work. Any way of getting around this?

Thanks in advance.
Sure - if you're not competent to do audits, that would prevent you! If you are, then not auditing your own work would be the only issues, as others have said. But you have to start at the beginning and decide what competencies are required to be an auditor and take it from there...(not just training, don't forget)
 
A

arios

#6
What about the one person company?
Definetly working with one eye and auditing with the other is not the option ;)

In that case I would consider using a contracted auditor, may be a consultant, or perhaps ask for support to the local chapter of the ASQ if one available for a resource.

I am not sure if everyone will agree with me but under this limited scenario I would even consider customer audits to cover part of the audit program. Opinions are wellcome.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
If the standard (I guess we're talking 9001 in this case) is applicable to any organization, any size, doing anything, anywhere why does it have a requirement that conflicts with it's Scope? Doesn't the DUH factor kick in here?

The "thou shall not audit thy own work" is a :horse: requirement and doesn't guarantee diddly.
 
#9
Definetly working with one eye and auditing with the other is not the option ;)

In that case I would consider using a contracted auditor, may be a consultant, or perhaps ask for support to the local chapter of the ASQ if one available for a resource.

I am not sure if everyone will agree with me but under this limited scenario I would even consider customer audits to cover part of the audit program. Opinions are wellcome.
Customer audits can't count for much under an internal audit program. Indeed, from numerous posts we've seen here over the years, it's highly possible that the customer auditors aren't as competent as the internal people! Don't confuse the two. External audits are external, plain and simple. If you are the MR, the only reason not to do audits is not being competent...

Once we get past the (as Randy puts it) "thou shall not audit thine own work" issue, I believe it's in the interests of the MR to be fully engaged in audits of the system they are supposed to be responsible for. Let's face it, there's not much else for them to do!
 
S

silentrunning

#10
Internal audits are one of my larger headaches. We are a small company and I find the IAs taking the "if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" attitude with each other. If I do not accompany them on an internal audit it turns out to be almost a mutual admiration society. They always go exceptionally easy on me and turn a blind eye to many needed improvements. I do like ISO, but I wish someone smarter than me could come up with something better than the Internal Audit.
 
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