MSA for Destructive Testing - Tensile tester - Welding Processes

W

weisusu

#1
I have several welding processes where I need to validate the testing method. Basically I have three welded parts where I use exactly the same tensile tester, same testing speed, same testing fixture, same program for testing. For testing validation standpoint, do I need to perform three MSAs or one is sufficient to justify since all testing parameters are identifical?


Aiden
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
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#2
I know of no reason to do 3 MSA studies (one on each of the 3 different parts) based upon the fixturing, etc., being the same. But - Change one aspect, such as the fixturing, and you will not be able to argue 'qualification by similarity'.

That is my opinion, however. I'm sure one or more of the 'gurus' will add their expertise to this thread on monday.

See the 'Similar Threads' at the bottom of the page and here are a couple of other Destructive Tensile Tester discussion threads:

MSA Study for tensile tester
MSA for Destructive Tests - Tensile test as an example.
 
D

Dave Dunn

#3
I'd have to think that being different parts would be sufficient reason that you should, or at least would want to, perform separate MSA studies. The part and characteristic are as much a part of the measurement system as the gage, fixturing, etc. Change from measuring one weld to a differently designed weld and the part will likely respond differently and show different variance that the first.

Similarily, I would be hesitant to combine MSA on different parts even if, for example, I was measuring bore sizes of the same diameter and tolerance on each. The bores might be different length or quality of form; the materials used in the parts might cause the gage to have a different feel for the operator, etc. I generally only consider the option of rubber-stamping or combining measurements on MSA if I'm working on multiple tools of parts that are designed to be the same.

I don't consider myself an MSA guru, so take my comments with a grain of salt. The other more experienced pros can help well.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#4
If it's automotive, the probability is that the customer will require that an MSA (measurement system analysis) be performed on each part whether it is 'necessary' (makes sense) or not.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
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#5
Do YOU want to?

weisusu said:
I have several welding processes where I need to validate the testing method. Basically I have three welded parts where I use exactly the same tensile tester, same testing speed, same testing fixture, same program for testing. For testing validation standpoint, do I need to perform three MSAs or one is sufficient to justify since all testing parameters are identifical?
weisusu

If you are in Autotmotive, you probably have to, but...do YOU want to?

Do you see any benefit?

If you don't want to, just do one generic test and submit it clearly labelled as such.

You might get called on it right away (apologzie and do the other tests ASAP), or it might be accepted for years (smile inwardly).

I find the customer person reviewing the data is even busier (and possibly) less knowledgeable than me.

I have sent in MSAs with incorrect math, MSAs done on gage blocks, and family MSAs for years. As long as the R&R was under 10%, there was never a problem (all they understand?). It's my little customer test.

I did get caught with the gage block study by an astute customer SQE. He asked if I knew that it was incorrect to do studies on gage blocks. I said I did, but didn't know if he did. I said I'd fix it if he issued a formal Corrective Action so I could show my boss I needed time to fix it. It did not come up in his closing meeting.

So, there is "what is required", and "what you can get away with".

I suppose there is also "what are you comfortable with".

These are 3 very different things.

I hate MSA, but I always learn something from them. If you don't do it you'll never know. Does it matter? To who (whom?)?

Please let us know what you decide to do
 
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