Multi Site EMS and QMS Management System Implementation

G

glenn0004

#1
As a UK based company we have a head office campus and over 28 localised office across the UK. All locations are currently inthe scope of our EMS and QMS management systems. Due the economic climate we are restructuring and aim to have 4 types of offices across the UK - Super Hubs, Hubs, Satellite Offices and Regional Offices. The original plan is to only include the Super Hubs within the EMS and QMS management systems.
I'm aware of some of the issues that this will bring however; my bigger concern is regarding the exclusion of the Regional Offices that cover Scotland and ROI. Our operations in these areas operate under the same company name as the UK but are suffixed with the regional name.
If we exclude these locations, what status could be claimed for these locations who operate the same processes but are not listed.
 
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Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Are you asking this in the context of a certification to ISO 9001/ISO14001 etc?

If so, talk to your Certification Body. In practice, your audited locations will appear on your certificate (as an annex, usually, which you probably have right now). Of course, the regional offices can't claim to be certified.
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
#3
As a UK based company we have a head office campus and over 28 localised office across the UK. All locations are currently inthe scope of our EMS and QMS management systems. Due the economic climate we are restructuring and aim to have 4 types of offices across the UK - Super Hubs, Hubs, Satellite Offices and Regional Offices. The original plan is to only include the Super Hubs within the EMS and QMS management systems.
I'm aware of some of the issues that this will bring however; my bigger concern is regarding the exclusion of the Regional Offices that cover Scotland and ROI. Our operations in these areas operate under the same company name as the UK but are suffixed with the regional name.
If we exclude these locations, what status could be claimed for these locations who operate the same processes but are not listed.
Glenn,

Your internal audits may show that you can self-declare conformity in the locations excluded from accredited certification.

Alternatively, you be able to negotiate a deal with your CB to redesign their audits to sample the regional offices provided they share the same management system. FedEx maintains its global certification doing this but all its depots share the same processes and a single management system. Your products and processes may be more diverse but may be grouped into fewer management systems that govern your organization.

A long-term plan to study and understand your organization as a single system so you can redesign its management system may also reduce your annual CB bill. Sustaining employee buy-in and engagement is the problem to solve in such global systems. Usually such organizations share the same processes but may retain a lot of innovation and improvement at the task or work instruction level. Of course the users, as stakeholders, should also retain a say in the shared innovation and improvement of the global processes.

Good luck,

John
 
G

glenn0004

#4
Thanks Guys for your input.

As we are a Sales and Service company, my concerns are that if we are in a pre sale qualification process with a customer at one of the non listed locations, are we able able to confirm accreditation to ISO 9001 and 14001 within the qualification process. I'm quite happy of how this is covered by the Satellite offices (non listed) as these are pure hot desk space and the employees working from there will belong to a Hub or Super hub that will be listed. However under the same ideal the Regional Offices can not claim the same. So, I'm I right in thinking that the Regional Offices would not be able to claim accreditation within a pre sale qualification process.

At this time, it's our intention to limit internal audits to the listed locations only.

Thanks
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
#5
Thanks Guys for your input.

As we are a Sales and Service company, my concerns are that if we are in a pre sale qualification process with a customer at one of the non listed locations, are we able able to confirm accreditation to ISO 9001 and 14001 within the qualification process. I'm quite happy of how this is covered by the Satellite offices (non listed) as these are pure hot desk space and the employees working from there will belong to a Hub or Super hub that will be listed. However under the same ideal the Regional Offices can not claim the same. So, I'm I right in thinking that the Regional Offices would not be able to claim accreditation within a pre sale qualification process.

At this time, it's our intention to limit internal audits to the listed locations only.

Thanks
Glenn,

May I suggest you redraft your certification scope statement with your CB to fit your business needs and then determine the most economic means of maintaining accredited certification of your organization's management systems?

Why limit your internal audits?

John
 
G

glenn0004

#6
Glenn,

May I suggest you redraft your certification scope statement with your CB to fit your business needs and then determine the most economic means of maintaining accredited certification of your organization's management systems?

Why limit your internal audits?

John
Thanks John

"Why limit your internal audits?" well in short ....top management buy-in....yes I know what you may well sugest. On average I spend 50-60 days per year completing internal audits across the branch locations and internal departments, which as been deemed as too many. From conversations with our CB, the only way of reducing our audit commitment (external audit) would be to exclude a sector or our business and reduce our scope and reduce the number of employees covered by our IMS...this is not what we want to do. Our CB is happy with the idea of not including our satellite locations as the these are "hot desk" locations which effectivley belong to a Hub or Super Hub but this would not be the case for the regional offices as they would be the sole office within Scotland and Ireland and effectivley trade as "COMPANY NAME Scotland".
 
#7
Or...

You could do audits based on "status and importance", which may reduce the number and focus on issues that management appreciate.

Tell me, do you do audits to a 12 month calendar? Do you involve the top management in the planning and make the purpose of internal audits to check on things which are giving them concerns (or should be)? Things like:

New/changed processes, people, customers & requirements, regulations, suppliers, technology etc

Or poorly performing processes etc.

If you stop pushing a calendar to suit ISO and your CB (what WERE they thinking) and focus on business issues, you'll get a lot more support (eventually)
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
#8
Thanks John

"Why limit your internal audits?" well in short ....top management buy-in....yes I know what you may well sugest. On average I spend 50-60 days per year completing internal audits across the branch locations and internal departments, which as been deemed as too many. From conversations with our CB, the only way of reducing our audit commitment (external audit) would be to exclude a sector or our business and reduce our scope and reduce the number of employees covered by our IMS...this is not what we want to do. Our CB is happy with the idea of not including our satellite locations as the these are "hot desk" locations which effectivley belong to a Hub or Super Hub but this would not be the case for the regional offices as they would be the sole office within Scotland and Ireland and effectivley trade as "COMPANY NAME Scotland".
Glenn,

It is indeed unfortunate if you have ended up with a QMS just to keep a certificate.

When I see too much internal auditing per 8.2.2 it is due to a lack of monitoring per 8.2.3.

You may be able to solve this problem by determine whom management should nominate to own the monitoring process and then work with that person to analyze monitoring as it is done. This person will be effective at showing their commitment to process requirements without micromanaging.

You may find that monitoring is really supervision where the supervisor ensures their process teams understand the requirements (including the process objective) and have what they need to fulfill the process requirements before they start work. They check periodically to ensure their process team members know whether their part of the process is effective and to consult with them to see if the process needs to be improved.

Remember, the boss that is ignored is the one that does not follow-up. :bonk:

Capture the monitoring as it is and ensure it conforms to 7.1c, 8.2.3 and 7.1d; ask the process owner to secure corrections (within two weeks) where they agree to any nonconformity as you go, then update the documented monitoring procedure. Failure within two weeks indicates a system problem that needs corrective action per 8.5.2.

Establish a quality objective where at least 80% of the CARs come from non-audit activities (that is monitoring, employee suggestions, failure analysis and customer feedback). Report on this metric as an indicator of employee engagement.

As internal auditor always ask yourself why the nonconformity you discover had not already been reported for corrective action by the users and make that system weakness the subject of your nonconformity report.

Persist with this until you have the momentum from engaged users improving their system so it helps them more and more to meet requirements.

Lastly, your third-party auditor should not be condoning the lack of top management commitment by suggesting it be replaced with internal audit. Instead your CEO should ask for a 5.1 nonconformity! By withdrawing third-party auditing services instead of obtaining the leadership needed it seems your auditor is accepting defeat.

Is it beyond time to replace your auditor and possibly your CB?

John
 
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