Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated according to ISO 9001?

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#11
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

I agree that any piece of equipment used to "accept" product must be calibrated. Records of this calibration activity must be able to be retrieved as well.

...I remember a "story" I heard once of an auditor who wanted to see the calibration records for a 6inch metal rule he found on top of a mylar complete with part. The QA manager argued the rule was calibrated at the manufacturer and didn't need an independent calibration to be performed. Auditor disagreement ensured :)
So... the QA manager called the President of the rule manufacturer (quite a large company too who are well known for supplying measurement equip all over the world) at 3am local time and passed the phone to the auditor who promptly got an earful for even suggesting the rule was "out of calibration" and he'd be sued for liable if he took the matter further.... :)

what do you think the auditor did then? ... what would you do in his shoes?
The auditor or the auditee's shoes?:D Both seem to be acting a little childish.:) Write it up and continue.

I think the question of should I calibrate this or that is step 3.

Step 1 is what do I need to measure? What tool do I need to do the job?
Step 2 is determining how important/critical the readings are, and what is the impact if they are off?

Then, I would surmise whether the dimensional item should be verified or not.
 
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BradM

Staff member
Admin
#12
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

The funny thing is that same gage manufacturer is probably accredited to ISO 17025 now, for that same steel rule, because the TS certified companies were no longer allowed to accept them as calibrated. Eventually, Starrett, Mitutoyo, etc. all got certified. ...wonder if that same CEO is still there, and what he would say now...

By the way, I agree, the QA Mgr. is a blowhard...write a major for lack of committment to the standard requirements, and move on. I would also have a discussion with the QA Mgr., as to whether he wants the audit to proceed. I had a similar situation a few years back and it was ugly until the client realized my interpretations were correct. I refuse to audit a company that wants to play games, and will explain to the president why.
Helmut, I was typing at the same time. Guys... when quality professionals get to this type of behavior, we've all lost. :(

Good to see you back, Helmut. Haven't seen you around much, lately.:agree1:
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
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#13
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

I agree that any piece of equipment used to "accept" product must be calibrated. Records of this calibration activity must be able to be retrieved as well.
Here is the bottom line: any device used to verify the product must show evidence of calibration. Fact is, every measurement device should be calibrated. Calibration has one fundamental task, to answer the question: "How do you know the gage is still reading correctly?" Without it you can not answer the question, and you have no nail to hang your hat on - manufacturer call or not.

If you think you have reason to use a gage without calibration, then perhaps you have stumbled upon reason enough to not need to make the measurement at all.


...I remember a "story" I heard once of an auditor who wanted to see the calibration records for a 6 inch metal rule he found on top of a mylar complete with part. The QA manager argued the rule was calibrated at the manufacturer and didn't need an independent calibration to be performed. Auditor disagreement ensured :)
So... the QA manager called the President of the rule manufacturer (quite a large company too who are well known for supplying measurement equip all over the world) at 3am local time and passed the phone to the auditor who promptly got an earful for even suggesting the rule was "out of calibration" and he'd be sued for libel if he took the matter further.... :)
Sure dilutes the old standard of if you manufactured it, you are qualified to calibrate it, huh? That would have been an interesting case. Sure would be handy to have a counter-suit ready.
 
#14
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

I've found a number of (scary) situations where the OE didn't know what calibration was for their specific equipment! Their 'ideas' about calibration were, frankly, bordering on incompetence......

In one bizarre case, this equipment was related to a critically important safety issue affecting (literally) millions of customers..........
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

I agree that any piece of equipment used to "accept" product must be calibrated. Records of this calibration activity must be able to be retrieved as well.

...I remember a "story" I heard once of an auditor who wanted to see the calibration records for a 6inch metal rule he found on top of a mylar complete with part. The QA manager argued the rule was calibrated at the manufacturer and didn't need an independent calibration to be performed. Auditor disagreement ensured :)
So... the QA manager called the President of the rule manufacturer (quite a large company too who are well known for supplying measurement equip all over the world) at 3am local time and passed the phone to the auditor who promptly got an earful for even suggesting the rule was "out of calibration" and he'd be sued for liable if he took the matter further.... :)

what do you think the auditor did then? ... what would you do in his shoes?
About the meter rule or scale, if it is from a recognized source and intended for commercial purpose, the graduations would be traceable to higher standards. However when at use it is the ability of the user to read from the scale accurately (without parallex error) to assess the measurement. I can spend more money than the cost of the scale to find out that 0 - 100 cm is more accurately 100.02 cm or 99.99 cm, or for that matter between any two graduations on the rule, but then what is the use of it.

One of my customer's auditor asked me for calibration of a meter scale which I use for his cable length measurement. Apart from being a meter scale of a reputed manufacturer we have none as a periodic calibration report and we said that we do not believe this is necessary. He differed and decided to get back later on this and has not referred it since last 3 years.....
 
S

Sorin

#16
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

About the meter rule or scale, if it is from a recognized source and intended for commercial purpose, the graduations would be traceable to higher standards. However when at use it is the ability of the user to read from the scale accurately (without parallex error) to assess the measurement. I can spend more money than the cost of the scale to find out that 0 - 100 cm is more accurately 100.02 cm or 99.99 cm, or for that matter between any two graduations on the rule, but then what is the use of it.

One of my customer's auditor asked me for calibration of a meter scale which I use for his cable length measurement. Apart from being a meter scale of a reputed manufacturer we have none as a periodic calibration report and we said that we do not believe this is necessary. He differed and decided to get back later on this and has not referred it since last 3 years.....

How about your registrar?...what is his position on this matter....just curious...
 
#17
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

I can't agree with your assertion, Bob, that everything must be calibrated.....

Rules are a good case in point. Why not simply verify them as legible, unworn etc. Are we really saying that the graduations are going to be 'off'??? I hope not!

But end wear, loose 'hooks' illegible, sure. So fix/replace them. Don't go making it a bigger deal of laying them on some interferometer to get the last gnat's eyebrow of a cal. reading from them..........
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#18
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

How about your registrar?...what is his position on this matter....just curious...
Likewise..., we have demonstrated that such meter rule is used at inwards goods inspection of the cable as well as in the process and final inspection, and we have a dimension of xx (+/- 3mm) to meet. The meter rule is fixed at the workbench, and is not subjected to any handling or wear when in use. The persons are trained to read the measurement. Enquires on internal complaints and customer complaints about cable length was audited and found none existed. Registrar's accepted our approach....
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#19
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

Rules are a good case in point. Why not simply verify them as legible, unworn etc.

But end wear, loose 'hooks' illegible, sure. So fix/replace them. Don't go making it a bigger deal of laying them on some interferometer to get the last gnat's eyebrow of a cal. reading from them..........
I don't thinks rules are a good example. If you checked for wear of the end of the hooks (e.g., by checking them to a graduation with a gage block, to be sure), or checked if the graduations are legible, that is calibration. It may be sufficient for your gage's use - or it may not. It depends. Surely, you can lay them on some interferometer if your usage demands it, but I think your vision of the meaning of the term calibration bay be a little overstated (even when interpreting the interferometer as exaggeration to make your point.) It is still verifying the gage still reads correctly. And that is what you are doing.

Besides, we know that many rules lead a rough life - often as surrogate screwdrivers, shims and scrapers - so it may not be so good to assume they are OK.


Maybe a better example of your point is if you are trying to sort out if an exhaust pipe tube is 1 1/2" or 2", then you can use a free plastic trade show caliper. Maybe calibrating them to the length of a knuckle is good enough....

Won't likely pass an audit, though, huh?
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#20
Re: Must a vernier caliper and a rule be calibrated?

Likewise..., we have demonstrated that such meter rule is used at inwards goods inspection of the cable as well as in the process and final inspection, and we have a dimension of xx (+/- 3mm) to meet. The meter rule is fixed at the workbench, and is not subjected to any handling or wear when in use. Registrar's accepted our approach....
Was the meter rule calibrated from the factory? Do you expect it to work forever with no wear where it is at? Then essentially you are saying that the gage is calibrated and you have a 99 year calibration period - and that particular auditor essentially agreed with it.
 
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