Must IQA training be conducted by a certified lead auditor?

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#1
Hi folks,

My previous client was given a NC by a certifying body because one of their experienced internal auditor facilitated an internal audit training for new auditors. The CB told them that ISO 9001 internal audit training must be conducted only by a certified lead auditor and is IRCA registered.

Can't find any basis for raising this nonconformity I hope you can help us.

Regards to all,

tony s
 
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Duke Okes

#2
Hi folks,My previous client was given a NC by a certifying body because one of their experienced internal auditor facilitated an internal audit training for new auditors. The CB told them that ISO 9001 internal audit training must be conducted only by a certified lead auditor and is IRCA registered.Can't find any basis for raising this nonconformity I hope you can help us.Regards to all,tony s
It may depend on the industry, standard being registered to (e.g., ISO, AS, TL, ...) and/or contract. But in no case have I ever seen this to be a requirement, unless the organization has designated it so in their internal procedures.

They should ask the external auditor what clause of what standard/procedure the nonconformity was against. Then consider firing the registration body/organization and going with one that itself has calibrated auditors!
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#3
I agree for ISO 9001:2000 there is no definition.
8.2.2
Selection of auditors and conduct of audits shall ensure objectivity and impartiality of the audit process. Auditors shall not audit their own work.
and a refrerence to
NOTE See ISO 10011-1, ISO 10011-2 and ISO 10011-3 for guidance.
that is noloner existent

TS though
8.2.2.5 Internal auditor qualification
The organization shall have internal auditors who are qualified to audit the requirements of this Technical Specification( see 6.2.2.2).
Get the reference from the auditor
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Everyone is right. I haven't seen any requirement in ISO9001:2000 that requires this. The only thing that I see is what was said regarding the internal procedure.

Ask the auditor where this is stated?
 
Q

qualitygal

#5
And I agree also. The only NC I've ever gotten was that the procedure for Internal Audit said the IA had to have a certain level of education and that was just some arbitrary requirement from the corporate HQ that we had overlooked in the procedure changes. It was written up as an obeservation and it was changed before the auditor left the building on the last day of the audit. It had been overlooked in previous audits by the CB's assessors.

And I would ask where he got that. It seems that auditors have a tendency to look for problems in areas they were invovled in prior to becoming auditors, i.e, if they spent 20 years in production before becoming auditors for DNV, ABS or whoever that will be the area they look at the hardest.

But yes I would definately protest that. If they are a respectable registrar you can request "mediation" from them on it. But be careful, you may aggravate someone. And changing CB's can create a lot of problems as well. Been there, done that. Turned out badly.
 
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tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#6
To All,

Thanks. I'm happy that what I understand is the same with you guys.:)

I guess there are some CBs even consulting firms who bring this kind of idea to push their interests to gullible companies here. That's why in a place where there is much confusion and where people who should be bringing the light is the one casting more shadows - then the more business opportunity for them.

Is'nt HONESTY the best policy?

I'm just dissapointed with these kind of people. Anyway, I'm still lucky to get informative/valuable replies from you guys. Thanks. :thanx:

tony s
 
P

potdar

#7
Tony,

An NC is formalised when the auditee accepts it. He has the choice to dispute. Obviously your client seems to have accepted the NC.

Just curious to know what corrective action has he committed. Maybe you could enlighten.
 
P

potdar

#8
Howard,

This reminds me of another thread, but as you say, there is no ISO 10011 series anymore. It is obsolete and has been replaced by ISO 19011. Pl refer to the new standards for info.

Reference to obsolete external documents!
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#9
It may depend on the industry, standard being registered to (e.g., ISO, AS, TL, ...) and/or contract. But in no case have I ever seen this to be a requirement, unless the organization has designated it so in their internal procedures.

They should ask the external auditor what clause of what standard/procedure the nonconformity was against. Then consider firing the registration body/organization and going with one that itself has calibrated auditors!
I'm a 10 year certified 3rd party Lead Auditor, and am not IRCA registered...:cool:
Does that mean I have to resign?
 

atitheya

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Hi folks,

My previous client was given a NC by a certifying body because one of their experienced internal auditor facilitated an internal audit training for new auditors. The CB told them that ISO 9001 internal audit training must be conducted only by a certified lead auditor and is IRCA registered.

Can't find any basis for raising this nonconformity I hope you can help us.

Regards to all,

tony s
:agree1: I agree with others. It is not necessary to have training conducted by such a person.

At best it can be a suggestion for improvement, wherein the IRCA or other recognised Internal Quality Audit Training Programs may be considered but certainly NOT a nonconformity. :frust:

Infact these programs do not necessarily iinclude particular industry / organisation specific systems and work areas unless customised so.

e.g. while conducting training for my clients, i include examples from the company itself and sometime involve their personnel. These are customised but not IRCA or otherwise registered training programs!!!
 
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