Must IQA training be conducted by a certified lead auditor?

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#11
Tony,

An NC is formalised when the auditee accepts it. He has the choice to dispute. Obviously your client seems to have accepted the NC.

Just curious to know what corrective action has he committed. Maybe you could enlighten.
Because of that NC they changed their documented procedure and included something like: "internal auditor's must undergo and successfully complete an internal audit training course provided by an accredited/certified body..."

Then hired an IRCA registered consultant, to make matters worse for them.

I only got to know this after the QMR telephoned me to tell that they're worried because only two of them out of almost 20 training participants failed the exam given by their facilitator. So their auditors are now depleted and they have to complete again another round of audit before the upcoming surveillance which is scheduled on October 30, 2006.:mg:

tony s
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#12
Most likely a self inflicted wound.

I just did an on-site training course that included some of the clients documents and guess what, a pretty similar thing about training and so forth. Thes folks had developed some great stuff, but never really "read" it. They of course asked why their registration auditors ( I admit, they're ours) had never seen the things I saw. I simply say that as a trainer I have a different perspective than an assessor and that I was probably looking at a different piece of the system.
 
P

potdar

#13
Because of that NC they changed their documented procedure and included something like: "internal auditor's must undergo and successfully complete an internal audit training course provided by an accredited/certified body..."

Then hired an IRCA registered consultant, to make matters worse for them.

I only got to know this after the QMR telephoned me to tell that they're worried because only two of them out of almost 20 training participants failed the exam given by their facilitator. So their auditors are now depleted and they have to complete again another round of audit before the upcoming surveillance which is scheduled on October 30, 2006.:mg:

tony s

Well your comment :mg: says it all. I dont know what I could add. Maybe :lmao: , maybe :frust: or maybe :applause: . But anyway, for other auditees likely to be, or already in such a situation, this is a great :caution: .

Thanks for a nice case. Lots to learn for all.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#14
Howard,

This reminds me of another thread, but as you say, there is no ISO 10011 series anymore. It is obsolete and has been replaced by ISO 19011. Pl refer to the new standards for info.

Reference to obsolete external documents!
Slightly:topic:
How should one act in reference to this Note?
 
P

potdar

#15
Slightly:topic:
How should one act in reference to this Note?
1. This just gives the new documents that have come into existance and replaced the ISO 10011 series - for reference of all who may need the info.

2. Completely:topic: This refers to discussion in the thread "Non-Conformance due to obsolete ISO/TS 16949 audit checklist" regarding whether normative references mean the latest edition, and whether using an outdated edition is an NC.
 
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Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
Because of that NC they changed their documented procedure and included something like: "internal auditor's must undergo and successfully complete an internal audit training course provided by an accredited/certified body..."

tony s
It appears that this was a "Reactive" action and not a "Proactive" action by Top Management. A typical reactive management group in my opinion. I would have Management rethink their reactive action. :bonk: :frust:
 
Last edited:

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#17
Because of that NC they changed their documented procedure and included something like: "internal auditor's must undergo and successfully complete an internal audit training course provided by an accredited/certified body..."

Then hired an IRCA registered consultant, to make matters worse for them.

I only got to know this after the QMR telephoned me to tell that they're worried because only two of them out of almost 20 training participants failed the exam given by their facilitator. So their auditors are now depleted and they have to complete again another round of audit before the upcoming surveillance which is scheduled on October 30, 2006.:mg:

tony s
It is unclear.

If only two passed the training, then either the trainer did a poor job of training or testing.

Or perhaps the original NC was justified and the auditors were not good at auditing.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#18
Okay, we've all agreed that poor Tony's finding was not the best and that management's response was even worse. Time to move forward.

There's a saying in english : "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

So, your organization accepted the finding, changed their processes to a format that did not benefit them, spent lots of money on training and now are feeling pretty low in the morale department.

You can not change the past...but you can alter how you approach internal auditing in the future.

Tony, by now you have hopefully realized that the NC your company was issued held no merit (let alone value). So...revise your internal auditing process so that it will add value to your organization. There are lots of threads here in the Cove on developing an audit programme and I suggest you use the "Search" function to find them.

Chalk up this whole event to a 'lesson learned'.
 
T

Ted Schmitt

#19
We´ve been registered since 1999 and to begin with, we trained 3 lead internal auditors with a consulting firm. Ever since then, all our internal auditors have been trained by me (I only have internal auditor training) and no CB has ever questioned this.

Another example of poorly trained or inexperienced CB lead auditors?
 

Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#20
Because of that NC they changed their documented procedure and included something like: "internal auditor's must undergo and successfully complete an internal audit training course provided by an accredited/certified body..."

Then hired an IRCA registered consultant, to make matters worse for them.

I only got to know this after the QMR telephoned me to tell that they're worried because only two of them out of almost 20 training participants failed the exam given by their facilitator. So their auditors are now depleted and they have to complete again another round of audit before the upcoming surveillance which is scheduled on October 30, 2006.:mg:

tony s
This all could have been avoided if someone would have said "Can you show me the shall, please?"
 
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