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Must we identify steps taken to identify the Root Cause of a failure

C

CATERAF

#1
Hallo,

Hopefully this is just a quick question.

When we record the RCA do we need to be saying the steps taken to identify the RCA or is it sufficient to just say what the root cause is?
My understanding was that you need to say how you got to the root cause because there could be other causes besides the one that they identified (but how do you know that if you didn't look at what they did to identify the cause?). I could be asking too much of the staff though if all they need is to say what they identified the root cause to be.

Before asking them to complete it I just wanted to make sure I'm not asking them what isn't called for!

Thanks,
Avril
 
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C

CATERAF

#3
Thanks for changing the title -- I realised after I'd typed it and couldn't find a way to edit it -- only the content!
 
T

Tara Monson

#4
We do not list the the steps on obtaining root cause. We practice the five why's in our facility, but it is not documented.

The standard (I'm assuming ISO 9001:2008) does not require documentation of getting to RCA.

Good luck!
 

hogheavenfarm

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
True, actual steps involved do not have to be shown, but your organization should document the procedure used, such as 5-Y or 8-D, so the customer knows exactly how you are determining root cause. Most of our customers specify which procedure we must use (usually 8-D), so I have documented both and they are part of our documented CI procedures.
 

Bev D

Heretical Statistician
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Do you have to document the steps? usually no, unless your Customer requires it for CAs they issue to you.

However, why wouldn't you? the steps - or diagnostic questions and the results (data or information) form not only the objective evidence that allows you and others - including the problem solving team - to have a higher (true) confidence level that the cause was determined and that the solution will work before you implement the fix and have to wait to see the effectiveness. The steps and data provide excellent training and learning opportunities for preventing similar problems as well as for future problem solving. This information is a gold mine - why would anyone want to not document it?
 

harry

Super Moderator
#7
...................... When we record the RCA do we need to be saying the steps taken to identify the RCA or is it sufficient to just say what the root cause is? .............................
The 8d form as an example of a form with steps or procedures built into it.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
Hallo,

Hopefully this is just a quick question.

When we record the RCA do we need to be saying the steps taken to identify the RCA or is it sufficient to just say what the root cause is?
My understanding was that you need to say how you got to the root cause because there could be other causes besides the one that they identified (but how do you know that if you didn't look at what they did to identify the cause?). I could be asking too much of the staff though if all they need is to say what they identified the root cause to be.

Before asking them to complete it I just wanted to make sure I'm not asking them what isn't called for!

Thanks,
Avril
Hi,
Many a times, either the rootcause is known and knowingly camouflaged., or the way to arrive at the root cause is not known.
Both these are not what is required.
So a basic HOW question must be asked to each rootcause
 
Last edited:

Mikishots

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Hallo,

Hopefully this is just a quick question.

When we record the RCA do we need to be saying the steps taken to identify the RCA or is it sufficient to just say what the root cause is?
My understanding was that you need to say how you got to the root cause because there could be other causes besides the one that they identified (but how do you know that if you didn't look at what they did to identify the cause?). I could be asking too much of the staff though if all they need is to say what they identified the root cause to be.

Before asking them to complete it I just wanted to make sure I'm not asking them what isn't called for!

Thanks,
Avril
It doesn't need to be recorded (unless it's a stipulated requirement by the customer or other stakeholder), but irrespective of that, I would be asking the question "how did you determine that this is the root cause, and how do you know it's the only root cause?"

I can't see why anyone wouldn't want to record the steps taken; it can only help.
 

hogheavenfarm

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
As Harry pointed out, the RC procedures generally have documented steps in them, whether it be 5Y or 8D or a fishbone diagram. These 'internal' documents will be retained in your Failure Analysis file for that product/customer.
I do not believe anyone just sits around a table and shouts out possible causes and when everyone agrees , that becomes it. (Well, then again, maybe some do).There is always documentation involved, the question becomes how much and how thorough. Using an established procedure makes sure all angles are addressed, and can identify multiple causes.
This info would not normally be provided to the customer, just an account of the method and the determination. Many times these procedures uncover areas that are proprietary or confidential, some redaction may be needed in a final summary document.
Lately I have been seeing the customer supply an 8D with the NCR, so your own analysis becomes the working draft before filling in the one they supply.
 
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