NADCAP and Gap Analysis for a Heat Treating facility

D

dbzman

#11
Any help is greatly appreciated!
I have heard many horror stories about NADCAP audits and I am trying to be as prepared as possible.
We do not want to try this until late next year. My boss keeps asking for a cost analysis but it is difficult when you do not have the experience of having seen a NADCAP audit.

Thanks!

:agree:
 
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R

Randy Stewart

#12
Thanks Andy, yes this was like stepping back in time when the B-3 made QS mandatory and there just wasn't enough auditors to keep up with the registrations. They pulled anyone off the streets, gave them 36 hours of training and a checklist and told them to go audit. All they knew was the checklist. However, I have never been through an audit where there was no mention of customer sat. Blew me away.
We have completed the surveys and never heard anything back, no response, nothing. Not even an acknowledgement of receipt. I've never seen any mention of them in the (Nadcap) meeting minutes either. Don't take it personal, but I don't think anything becomes of them. In the computer and out the shredder.
Andy, we were even told, and I quote, "I don't know where the exact requirement is, but that is my interpretation of the checklist". Here's your minor. This was for not having an employee sign an evaluation, we had other evidence that it was reviewed with the employee but the auditor didn't accept it. We are challenging the finding. See where that leads.

dbzman,
No problem, we don't do heat treat but we are a service provider (NDT).
I do have a question for you, do you have a definition of "Thermal Treatment".
We took a hit for a forced air parts dryer (max temp <165 degrees F) not having the controller calibrated. We didn't calibrate it because we felt that drying wasn't a thermal treatment. We were wrong.
I would like to get a definition so I can apply it to any other equipment that we may have.
In the mean time have a look at the attached file.
 

Attachments

A

andygr

#13
"We have completed the surveys and never heard anything back, no response, nothing. Not even an acknowledgement of receipt. I've never seen any mention of them in the (Nadcap) meeting minutes either. Don't take it personal, but I don't think anything becomes of them. In the computer and out the shredder."

As the saying go "in quality you have thick skin or you get out"
No offence taken. Back 3 years ago the meetings that these came up is durring the auditor training sessions that only are attended by the PRI staff engineers and some Primes. The other thing is they can affect the auditor finicanly especialy if they get their findings or clasifications overturned by the Staff engineer. It will affect their rating and pay ( while not alot they realy are not paid all that much so it is noticed). I am sure it is still inplace. You should hear some of the comments and discussions in the all hands auditor meeting.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#14
These people make IRS auditors look intelligent.
Just curious. Would this person have found a serious problem if it existed?

Did they really understand heat treating? Did they really test your system and records. Or could you easily snow them (not that you ever would)?

I am used to this lite weight auditing in automotive, but hoped somehow it would be better in aerospace.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#15
If you review my previous posts on the subject, I am not fond at all of NADCAP. The main reason why is that they take AMS 2750 C (is that the latest?) and make a "bible" out of it, so to speak. Or like previously mentioned, a checklist. Well, IMHO, that specification was not written to be utilized in that manner.

Too, the average size organization that is performing aerospace heat treating work has multiple customers. Even within those customers, there are another set of specifications that govern the process, alloy, etc. Saying, it can make the head of the most astute quality professional spin like a top.

Before NADCAP, an organization could develop calibration/ metrology practices based on the process. They could write a worst case approach (or even middle of the road) process, and then have all the process information contribute to determining an effective process.
 
R

Randy Stewart

#16
I agree Brad. From what I saw, the Primes do not set the requirements, Nadcap does. Majority of the audit is not to the spec but to the checklist. In their defense here, some of the specs are vague or just poorly written so clarification of the requirement is needed. But when you process to the spec(s) you must make sure that you have covered the checklist too.
Chemical processing and NDT are the same when it comes to specs. We some 27 binders filled with different specs - Hamilton Sundstrand, Boeing, Bell Helicopter, etc., etc. So things like this Test Matrix is just a paperwork drill. According to NADCAP we have to go back to the spec, we can't use memory or a test matrix to dictate how we run hardware. So we have to put together this document containing some 125 specs, that we can't even use (except for audits).

Caster, As for the auditor, well 1 audit does not an auditor make. I'll reserve my opinion to just his technique, I don't know how many he has done or how long he's been in the business so I'll leave it at that. You ask a question and all you'd get was, it's in the checklist, that's what the checklist says or I don't go by the spec I have to follow the checklist.
Believe me, I feel like I've started all over with QS again. It's like I've gone back in time 15 years. Remember the Ford STAs doing your Q1 audits, back in the day? Yep, much like that.

Andy, I don't want to see an auditor flogged but just to be recognized as being an issue would be nice. There is no problem publishing the most popular findings (the biggest problems) that NADCAP identifies, so what would be wrong with publishing the most troublesome areas of your checklist and if there is anything to be done. Example: look at the TAM panels issue. Is NADCAP going to establish a baseline for the picture analysis? What is the lighting going to be, at what pixel setting should the camera be set too, at what resolution (or what program) do you use to evaluate the picture, what magnification? Etc.
 
A

andygr

#17
Just a point of clarification
It is not Nadcap who is creating the checklist it is your customers (the same ones making you get Nadcap approval). Each of the primes have their representitive on the task group and they all determine what they want in the checklist. The disagreements that come about over what is or is not important are the basis for the supplimental checklist that have come about (and should have never been allowed in my view). The Staff engineer acts more as a moderator and interface back to the auditors to let them know what the primes want and expect. Pri is responsable for the auditors and so if there is a problem with one you need to let them know so they can deal with it. Each task group is required to have more than then they need so if there is one that has to go they have no incentive to keep him.

:2cents:
 
B

Benjamin28

#18
Just a point of clarification
It is not Nadcap who is creating the checklist it is your customers (the same ones making you get Nadcap approval). Each of the primes have their representitive on the task group and they all determine what they want in the checklist. The disagreements that come about over what is or is not important are the basis for the supplimental checklist that have come about (and should have never been allowed in my view). The Staff engineer acts more as a moderator and interface back to the auditors to let them know what the primes want and expect. Pri is responsable for the auditors and so if there is a problem with one you need to let them know so they can deal with it. Each task group is required to have more than then they need so if there is one that has to go they have no incentive to keep him.

:2cents:

Additionally, NADCAP is very welcoming of supplier participation. NADCAP requirements are indeed a flowdown from the primes, and PRI audits are basically a checklist rundown followed by laboratory observations. PRI has little involvement with the quality system and I have found their auditors have little interest in the quality system as well. The primes want to know that you're following the requirements to make a product/perform a test that conforms to their specification, outside of that they don't care as much whether your customers are happy with your service. What bothers me about that is PRI still accredits to ISO 17025 which should have a strong focus on the quality system.
 
D

dbzman

#19
A parts dryer is usually not considered “Thermal (Heat) Treatment” by someone in the industry. Thermal Treatment transforms the material in some form; not just dry it. The materials properties are changed.

However; the term “Thermal Treatment” is a very generic one and could be interpreted in a number of ways. It sounds like the auditor is splitting hairs.

I believe that the NADCAP Heat Treating Auditor would not consider this “Heat Treating” equipment.

What significance does the drying process have to you part or service? It may be that the dryer is so important to your process that it would require this type of treatment.

:D
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#20
A parts dryer is usually not considered “Thermal (Heat) Treatment” by someone in the industry. Thermal Treatment transforms the material in some form; not just dry it. The materials properties are changed.

However; the term “Thermal Treatment” is a very generic one and could be interpreted in a number of ways. It sounds like the auditor is splitting hairs.

I believe that the NADCAP Heat Treating Auditor would not consider this “Heat Treating” equipment.

What significance does the drying process have to you part or service? It may be that the dryer is so important to your process that it would require this type of treatment.

:D
You're right. However, there are a lot of interpretations regarding ovens drying paint that are putting them into requirements for uniformity surveys and the like. And if the drying is that important, I would suspect uniformity requirements would be specified. IMHO, no interpretation would be necessary.

Instead of customers seeing this as a way to improve their process, they are wringing their hands, trying to figure out any way to get around NADCAP. Some of those who have gone into it are getting out because it's not worth the trouble.
 
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