NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit - Internal Auditing - Auditor did not record evidence

[puck1263]

We were issued an N/C for internal auditing.
Criteria cited was TS 16949 - 8.2.2 The organization shall conduct internal audits... to determine whethere the qulaity managemetn system...conforms to planned arrangement...

Objective evidence cited:Internal audit Checklist form 036 page 1 (audited on 1/23/09) had questions where the auditor did not record the evidence looked at and decision as to compliance as called out on checklist.


So, he found checklists in out internal auditing records where not every question on the list was addressed. Does this matter that every question is answered if the objective of the audit can be ahcieved without it? I tend to agree that proper planning shoudl produce a proper checklist as a roadmap to achieve the audit objectives. Some use the checklist as a question pool.

Thoughts?

 

[ralphsulser]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

Checklists are only guides, most times I don't use any checklist at all unless there are some specifics I want to pursue ralating to a previous issue. TS16949 does not require a checklist. Does your internal audit prodedure specify the use of checklists? If so then it needs revised as an option.

 

[AndyN]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

We were issued an N/C for internal auditing.
Criteria cited was TS 16949 - 8.2.2 The organization shall conduct internal audits... to determine whethere the qulaity managemetn system...conforms to planned arrangement...

Objective evidence cited:Internal audit Checklist form 036 page 1 (audited on 1/23/09) had questions where the auditor did not record the evidence looked at and decision as to compliance as called out on checklist.


So, he found checklists in out internal auditing records where not every question on the list was addressed. Does this matter that every question is answered if the objective of the audit can be ahcieved without it? I tend to agree that proper planning shoudl produce a proper checklist as a roadmap to achieve the audit objectives. Some use the checklist as a question pool.

Thoughts?

Well, one point of view might be that the internal auditor didn't know if this applied to the audit - could be they weren't 'competent' or missed the question/check on the list.......all kinds of things come to mind.

Did you know the point was missed, in review of the checklist? Was it applicable to the audit scope? If it was in the checklist, who decides when it's not applicable? Did the int. auditor just miss it? Lots of questions.....

This is one of the (many) problems with using 'canned' checklists. IMHO, each auditor should prepare their own. You'd get a better idea then, if they understood the audit assignment.

I probably wouldn't have written an nc before posing these types of clarifications with you, I would have dug a little deeper, but then, I'm not your auditor......

 

[Ted Schmitt]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

We were issued an N/C for internal auditing.
Criteria cited was TS 16949 - 8.2.2 The organization shall conduct internal audits... to determine whethere the qulaity managemetn system...conforms to planned arrangement...

Objective evidence cited:Internal audit Checklist form 036 page 1 (audited on 1/23/09) had questions where the auditor did not record the evidence looked at and decision as to compliance as called out on checklist.


So, he found checklists in out internal auditing records where not every question on the list was addressed. Does this matter that every question is answered if the objective of the audit can be ahcieved without it? I tend to agree that proper planning shoudl produce a proper checklist as a roadmap to achieve the audit objectives. Some use the checklist as a question pool.

Thoughts?

For those questions not addressed, where they simply not asked or the specific evidence was not recorded? It could have been recorded some where else on the checklist or page. I make some pretty creative records of my audits... arrows, boxes, *, notes etc.... I don´t write the objective evidence always neatly by the question (that is when I actually use a check list...

I agree with Andy and Ralph and think a little further checking should have been done... but we where not there....

 

[Howard Atkins]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

We were issued an N/C for internal auditing.
Criteria cited was TS 16949 - 8.2.2 The organization shall conduct internal audits... to determine whethere the qulaity managemetn system...conforms to planned arrangement...

Objective evidence cited:Internal audit Checklist form 036 page 1 (audited on 1/23/09) had questions where the auditor did not record the evidence looked at and decision as to compliance as called out on checklist.


So, he found checklists in out internal auditing records where not every question on the list was addressed. Does this matter that every question is answered if the objective of the audit can be ahcieved without it? I tend to agree that proper planning shoudl produce a proper checklist as a roadmap to achieve the audit objectives. Some use the checklist as a question pool.

Thoughts?

What was the actual NC, you gave the clause and the finding but not the NC.
Please give it and then I can reply.

 

[puck1263]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

N/C
NC-01 The Internal audit checklist form 036 page 1 is not always
completedly filled out by internal auditors (audit conducted on 1/23/09).

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

N/C
NC-01 The Internal audit checklist form 036 page 1 is not always
completedly filled out by internal auditors (audit conducted on 1/23/09).

Unless your company has a documented requirement to always completely fill out the checklist, the auditor is off base.

 

[Howard Atkins]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

Thanks.
This NC is well out of the guidelines of the IATF for a NC.!!!!!
The NC must refer to the standard or your procedure not just rewrite the objective evidence.

 

[puck1263]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

Thanks guys.
Our procedure does not state that it has to be completely filled out. Even if it did, that's not the criteria he cited.......

 

[puck1263]

Re: NC from TS16949 stage 2 audit -internal auditing - thoughts?

Yeah, this is a difficult situation because there were SEVERAL other things the were N/C that were noted that weren't written up. He could have picked any solid one.
This puts us in compromising situation if we protest the one he did write up....he'll remember next time he's here..
We'll probably just write up the corrective action, etc and let it go....even though I don't like it!