NCR, Containment Action, CAR - Some Basic Questions

[Pancho]

Re: NCR, Containment action, CAR

Second case:
We are installing and equipment and noticed that the hole diameters on equipment for anchors were wrong located.
From here we need maybe not inmediately, but in 1 or 2 days the solution, the guy on the site can´t decide what to do, he needs the Engineering support to define it, Its clear is not inmediate.
What procede in this case according to iso or common practices?

Don´t you think is a lot o burocreacy, raise a NCR, then wait for the QM raise
a CAR, then the responsible department to design and implement the solution?

What to do in this case? regarding the procedures, to keep what recordS?

Should we bypass everything, pick-up the phone,call the Engineering dept
ask for a quick solution, implement it , and thats all.

Tha papers, those available, gathered after?

As one example, here's how we do it:

Our NCRs are paper forms readily available around the shop. Upon discovery of a NC, the NCR gets written and, when necessary, immediately walked over to engineering for their input. This could be accomplished over the phone too. The form has a section for engineering instructions (or deviation acceptance). With that input, the correction and containment is done and annotated in the NCR.

The QM raises the CAR in our issue tracking system whenever it is convenient, and likely well after the emergency action is past. It is not mandated to file the Corrective Action Request immediately. When the Request is filed, then the info in the NCR gets loaded into the system and is available for the subsequent analysis.

Root Cause analysis and CA determination may take a several days or even weeks after the original NCR.

Good luck!
Pancho

 

[JaneB]

Re: NCR, Containment action, CAR

We are installing and equipment and noticed that the hole diameters on equipment for anchors were wrong located.

If you are asking - should we get those hole diameters fixed as quickly as we can (ie, rel-located) rather than install it with the wrong diameters, I think the answer is yes. (Common sense).

BUT the big question the system - and thus the bit about CA/PA is - WHY were the holes wrongly located?

If you just "bypass everything, pick-up the phone,call the Engineering dept
ask for a quick solution, implement it , and thats all." you can bet your bottom dollar that it WILL happen again. Because all you've done is fixed the immediate NC. You have not NOT taken effective corrective action to prevent it recurring.

Don´t you think is a lot o burocreacy, raise a NCR, then wait for the QM raise a CAR, then the responsible department to design and implement the solution?

For an immediate response to the immediate problem, yes. For a permanent solution designed to prevent recurrence, no.

Split them up. Sounds as though your current procedure/process is too cumbersome to accommodate the problem you quote. In that case, change it so that it works better and will.

 

[JaneB]

Re: NCR, Containment action, CAR

One thing that people often forget (or don't know :mg when drafting documents is that these things often happen concurrently and not serially. It's possible, and sometimes probable, that "correction," containment and CA will be going on simultaneously, or nearly so. In other cases, after containment and correction (remedial action), it could be months before CA is completed. This is why it makes sense to tell what has to happen, but not necessarily when.

Yes, very true Jim and excellent points.
I always aim to make such procedures not too prescriptive (do this, then do that afterwards and next do that), but to say what has to happen, cover off all the important bits (who signs off, what records must exist, what has to happen) but not dictate the order too prescriptively.