Need Direction on Process Flowchart for our upcoming ISO 9001:2001 audit

[cce]

I am assisting in the development of the Process flowchart for our upcoming ISO 9001:2001 audit. We have two examples that I have attached in a two-page file. I believe that we should use the diagram shown on page #2 as a very general roadmap/guide to our processes. Each process within the smaller diagram on page #2 would then be flowcharted {?} in much greater detail by using the example on page one.

Are we going in the right direction with this aspect of the conversion?

Where might one find more information online concerning this aspect of ISO 9001:2001 to include detailed help in constructing the flowchart and what it/they are required to contain?

Thank You,

Jeff Farrar

 

[energy]

Re: Need Direction on Process Flowchart

cce said:

I am assisting in the development of the Process flowchart for our upcoming ISO 9001:2001 audit. We have two examples that I have attached in a two-page file. I believe that we should use the diagram shown on page #2 as a very general roadmap/guide to our processes. Each process within the smaller diagram on page #2 would then be flowcharted {?} in much greater detail by using the example on page one.

Are we going in the right direction with this aspect of the conversion?

Where might one find more information online concerning this aspect of ISO 9001:2001 to include detailed help in constructing the flowchart and what it/they are required to contain?

Thank You,

Jeff Farrar

Jeff, my man,

The first one is mine!!! I uploaded it to Marc's files.

It was based on the 1994 version with the 20 elements and does not contain interaction or inputs/outputs that are touted here in the Cove by the experts to meet ISO9001:2000. Get to work, my good man. You can use it, but you have to obscure it with input/output jargon and arrows that demonstrate interaction....I'm flattered you chose it. But, you'll get slaughtered if it stands as is. There are other attachments in the 4.2.2c thread that may be more suitable. Print them all. Peace, Bro!

 

[JodiB]

All I'm getting when I download the file is one page, not two....?

 

[energy]

Yea, what he said

Lucinda said:

All I'm getting when I download the file is one page, not two....?

Cinda,

Even I would have to add those dreaded two-headed arrows between process blocks, because of interaction requirements. So, instead of this racetrack looking presentation I would have a bicycle wheel presentation. All these little spokes running here and there. Kind of silly, ain't it? Of course, we need these confusing maps because "How else are we to understand the business?" "How can any company operate without these maps?" Maybe we can take some examples to our next job interviews to demonstrate our grasp of what is required to make the company "Certifiable" and better. What a great idea, except as to what the interviewer would think who is "Certifiable".

 

[energy]

Re: Re: Yea, what he said

Jim Wade said:

Forgive me, Bill, but I don't see how arrows alone (whatever the number of heads) show how processes interact.

Surely it is necessary to identify what passes from process to process, not just the direction in which something unspecified passes?

rgds Jim

You're forgiven. I forgot that I would also include inputs and outputs next to each "process" block, in addition to those little three headed arrows.
The not so funny part is the very idea that we need to have something of this sort to impress upon a Third Party that we understand our business that is currently paying them and us. It's just rules made by those who have to keep coming up with new things to dig into company coffers to survive. Yup, I've said it before and really believe it.

When you visit the AS9000 threads, there doesn't seem to be this pre-occupation with this subject. Why is that? It's identical to ISO with extra requirements for the Aircraft Industry. Could it be that these all these companies have obtained fraudulent certifications from the "Charlatans" in the industry? Or, maybe they are too busy making a profit at what they do best, rather than fret about some stupid flowchart that brings nothing to the table. Whatever charts/diagrams/text procedures, etc. thay have crafted, are suitable to them and their Registrar. They certantly didn't wait for approval from here to proceed. And, I might add, this is probably true about most of the certified companies out there that visit this site. To them the whole subject is probably amusing. So there.

Hey, Atul looks great. Thanks for the photo. It would have been better if you set the timer and got in the picture yourself.

 

[energy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Yea, what he said

Jim Wade said:

Could it be that they consider the principles of the 'process approach' and a 'systems approach' to management to be significant (particularly as the Excellence Models are based on the same principles)? Or do you think Baldrige and the EFQM Models are 'stupid', too?

In short. might these people actually be rather knowledgeable about business and about 'quality' and have something - albeit poorly presented - to teach us?

Worth thinking about, isn't it?

rgds Jim

Jim,

Oh, I've thought about it. A lot. I never said any of it was "stupid". On the contrary, anytime someone comes up with a method to get their hands in your pockets, it's usually very clever. Seven years of laboring? C'mon. Not these people. That's a whole different thread.

A recruiter (head hunter) recently suggested that I don't put so much emphasis on ISO experience in my resume. He said that a few years ago it may have been the rage. More and more companies don't consider it worth the effort to obtain certification. Are they "stupid"? Unless they are forced to by their Customer base, such as AS9000, they just aren't as interested as they might have been. I believe that companies see it for what it is. Another industry that needs feeding. They want "real" value. Hey, who am I to argue? I'm stupid here.

Let's see some flowcharts. That's what started this thread. Jeff asked for some guidance. We can pick this up in the "Philosophy" thread, although we have gone round and round on this subject before. You believe, I don't!

 

[CarolX]

Re: Need Direction on Process Flowchart

cce said:

Where might one find more information online concerning this aspect of ISO 9001:2001 to include detailed help in constructing the flowchart and what it/they are required to contain?

Hi Jeff and welcome to the Cove,

This is really one of the best sites for information exchange. Many people here have years of experience with many aspects of ISO (along with some VERY definitive opinions!). All we ask is that you share your experiences with us.

Good luck and see ya around!

Regards,
CarolX

 

[David Mullins]

my thoughts

 

[cce]

I appreciate the links and examples that were posted. They have been and will be very helpful. Our ISO personnel here will be assimilating all the data to see which options we will now need to pursue. One of the problems we are currently experiencing is in getting our department heads to complete their various parts of the process. Our external auditor will arrive on or about March 7th and we have yet to address in any detail the new sections that were added in the 2001 standard.

Thanks again for the help and the information.

Jeff

 

[energy]

Beware

cce said:

One of the problems we are currently experiencing is in getting our department heads to complete their various parts of the process.
Jeff

Failure to get them on board can be hazardous to the Mgt. Rep's health. Just ask me!

Good luck with the Auditor. Stop in once in awhile.