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New AS9101 - The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release - IAQG9101 standard

Marc

Marc

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#41
#41
Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release

Sidney Vianna said:
The goal is for auditors to delve into the actual organization's processes, not a checklist.
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Why can an auditor not "delve into the actual organization's processes" by using a check list as a starting point? That's what I always did.
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#42
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Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release

Marc said:
Why can an auditor not "delve into the actual organization's processes" by using a check list as a starting point? That's what I always did.
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Marc, to use a checklist as a starting point is no problem whatsoever. However, many auditors misperceive and misunderstand the purpose of a checklist. Instead of focusing on the processes at hand, many auditors believe their task is to complete the damned checklist. So, the checklist becomes the audit.

Checklists, as tools, can always play an useful part in an audit. But it should never be the purpose of an audit to fill out a checklist.

In the Aviation, Space & Defense sector, it was recognized several years ago that the 9101, 9111 and 9121 (elemental-approach) checklists represent a hindrance to auditors attempting to perform process based audits.
 
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Marc

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#43
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Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release

I guess that's why the "anti-check list" movement never turned me on. I would start with a check list and by the time I was done I knew their processes, how they interact, and in depth.

For example, if a check list says something like: "Verify Document Control System and that it satisfies the requirements of the standard." From that point it was "Show me your procedure", I'd read through it and then start asking for records (as appropriate) and then to the floor (or where ever) to vertify the end points.

I always used a check list to ensure I touched on every requirement, but that involved getting 'down and dirty' in the "Show me this..." and "Show me that...", "How is this communicated?", etc., etc.

I don't remember ever coming out of a company without knowing their systems, how they interacted, having seen that there was ample evidence that systems were being followed, appropriate records were being kept, etc.

I will say I have been in a lot of companies that were registered to a standard such as ISO 9001 where I found *Major* nonconformances (often several). I attribute that to auditor incompetence, and I hope it's getting 'better' because a lot of it was going on when I was an active auditor/implementor/consultant.
 
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Phiobi

#44
#44
Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release - IAQG9101 standard

I have been going through some of the things in the most recent version of AS9101 rev D draft I could find and they differ from the recent course I attended.

On the course they showed me a draft of 9101 rev D that instead of EAR used PEAR - Process Effectiveness Assessment Record.

I am trying to get a little bit ahead of the game ready for release in Jan 10 but I don't want to go through a draft if there is a newer draft...

Getting to my point.... has anybody got the most recent draft (making reference to PEAR's)?
 
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Phiobi

#46
#46
Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release - IAQG9101 standard

Thanks for that.

Any idea why I can find the old draft document but not the latest draft? Not just here but ANYWHERE lol

Has a date in January been confirmed yet? Need to get a copy as soon as it comes out! i plan to perform ALL 2010 audits to rev D ready for my certification to AS9100 rev C in October 10
 
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#47
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Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release - IAQG9101 standard

Phiobi said:
i plan to perform ALL 2010 audits to rev D ready for my certification to AS9100 rev C in October 10
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9101 is not meant for internal audits; the document was developed with CB audits in mind.

9100C stipulates pretty much the same level of internal audit requirements as ISO 9001. So, from a AS9100C certification standpoint, you are not required to follow 9101. Certainly many of the requirements in 9101D could be used to guide internal audit teams as well, but be careful not to overkill it.
 
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Phiobi

#48
#48
Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release - IAQG9101 standard

Good point, not planning to go OTT but I do want to use the same format forms, PEAR and stipulate my guys use process mapping!
 
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Phiobi

#49
#49
Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release - IAQG9101 standard

So guys any idea of a date for rev D release? Also any idea where I can get hold of the latest draft??? If not get hold of it tell me why it is so hard to find :)
 
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ChuckZ

#50
#50
Re: New AS9101-The Coordination Draft. Not the Official Release

Hi Marc,

It being rather late, I'll defer a more lengthy intro for now. But I did want to comment on your sentiments about the "anti-checklist" movement, which I share! I have been a lead assessor for almost 18 years and I have observed a deterioration in the performance of audits of all types. Much of this is due to the "process approach" in my opinion. Auditors now miss fundamental requirements of the standards because of the lack of structure in this approach to auditing. It is assumed that the auditor will reference all of the appropriate requirements but they do not. I dread following some auditors when I do "oversight" audits. It is embarrassing that the previous auditor issued zero nonconformances and I often could easily write a half dozen. Embarrassinf and frustrating.

Chuck
 
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