New CMM - Zeiss vs Wenzel vs ?? (Any Feedbacks)

Z

z28tt

We've got the go ahead to purchase a new DCC CMM. Since it's such a large purchase, I'd love to get feedback from you guys as for what to look out for, and to separate truth from sales-guy speak. Size-wise, I'm looking at something as large as our biggest CNC, which would be a 1000x2100x600mm CMM. We've checked out a Zeiss Contura G2 w/ the active scanning VAST XT head, but getting quotes from their local reseller & sales guy has been like pulling teeth (can I be the customer for once?!! Please?). If the service is like this now, I can't imagine what it'd be like after we've bought the machine...

Accuracy specs for that size machine are 1.9+300/L microns for length and probing error, 3.0 for scanning, and 1.9 for form (catalog shows that it's per ISO 10360-2, -4, and ISO 12181, but I'm not familiar with those specs yet). We'd be getting Calypso software w/ an offline seat for programming, and also the curve add-on. The demo we were given was OK, but I managed to stump the reseller's engineer several times, so it seems like it's not too user friendly (not that I know anything different).

A comparable machine from Wenzel would be the LH 10.20.8 Series with the Renishaw SP25M scanning head (1.9 + L/350 for volume, and 2.5 for scanning, so slightly better accuracy). Wenzel makes a big deal about their OpenDMIS software, and how the error tables are open vs proprietary (so only a Zeiss tech could adjust). We haven't had that demo yet, but we'll see. We don't have many solid models (our CNC programs are generated from Mastercam in 2.5D mostly), so we'll be making programs from scratch as we inspect. Not having used either Calypso or Open-DMIS at all, I'm not really able to see the weaknesses of either.

The CMM would be in our inspection department, we have a good, clean air supply. This is our first DCC CMM (have a manual now, with Metronics QC5000 software that I'm not thrilled about), and I just want to make sure I'm aware of everything that I need to be (i.e. I don't want to regret my decision a year from now!).

Thanks for any help!
 
If the service is like this now, I can't imagine what it'd be like after we've bought the machine...
I am long gone from the CMM customer base, but we bought one back in the 80's, and you know what? We had the same problem, so read the service contract carefully.

We'd be getting Calypso software w/ an offline seat for programming, and also the curve add-on. The demo we were given was OK, but I managed to stump the reseller's engineer several times, so it seems like it's not too user friendly (not that I know anything different).
I would not worry too much about the accuracy specs, but you may want to have a good long look at how the software evaluates Form and Position tolerances. In the old days I stumbled across several bugs, and a few real bloopers caused by software designers taking shortcuts. One case is point was evaluation of true position with MMC for a hole pattern. In certain circumstances it claimed that perfectly good parts were out of tolerance.

/Claes
 

cbearden

Involved In Discussions
Zeiss Calypso is soooooo far advanced when compared to other software.....I've Used both ZEISS software and PCDMIS and The ZEISS Calypso is by far more user friendly and the Algorithyms are more Accurate....but this is only my opinion.
 
J

JAltmann

What kind of parts are trying to measure? That will be a big indication as to the type of probe head to get. The Vast XT and SP25 are alot different, the Vast Xt is fixed and the SP25 is used in combonation with an PH10 articulating head. If you have alot of non-prismatic parts you may want to look at the Zeiss with an RDS head and Vast XXT sensor.

Both software have their pro's and con's, so you need to kinda look at how each works for YOUR application. What i like to do is send the sales team one of my parts ahead of time and let them make a fancy program to really WOW me. When i come for the demo i spring a second different part on them and let them show much hard easy it really is/isn't with my products to algin and take some measurements.

I haven't had any with promt Ziess service, but sales has been so-so.

But without knowing your applications i can't really say which is better for you, i like some software's better than others depending on application.
 
Z

z28tt

Thanks guys. We have a mix of machined aerospace parts. Most are 90deg prismatic, so a fixed head with a star probe could do it easily enough, but there are a few w/ angled planes that we'd have to atleast use angled knuckles on a probe. Because of that, we focused on the VAST-XT w/ active scanning, rather than the Zeiss articulating RDS head (or PH10 Renishaw).

The one application that would benefit from very accurate scanning is cam surfaces. Zeiss says active scanning is best, while Wenzel points out the benefits of passive scanning... <shrug>.

We have quite a few parts with ID grooves that would need a disc probe as well.

I'd also like to scan spur gear teeth, but can't justify $12k for a gear specific module for just two part numbers a few times a year.

From what I can tell, everyone (including PC-DMIS) does graphical feature based programming now. We did the whole "send a part to their team, and demo" thing, which is how I ended up stumping the vendor's Zeiss engineer, and lost my warm fuzzies over Calypso's capabilities (w/o very intensive formula based calculations, which our basic inspectors may not be able to come up with...). If there's tech help for Calypso a phone call away instead of my vendor, I can deal with that. I was just scared that it could only get worse from here. What frightens me about Wenzel/OpenDMIS is that I can't find an active users forum...

Seems Zeiss Calypso is what everyone else compares against, so maybe it was just an off day or a new engineer on the demo. We'll see how the Wenzel/OpenDMIS demo goes. Thanks again!
 
J

JAltmann

Active scanning is superior to passive scanning. Hmm one uses a force feedback loop to control probing force while the other uses spring tension.

I have scanned lobes well enough with our Ziess, doesn't compare to our Adcole, but is pretty decent.

Gears you'll want an active which-ever route you go, could always add a gear package later.

With the angled face yes you most likely need to build some angled probes for a fixed head, not the end of the world. But you use a little bit of accuracy with an articulating head.

The demo you had was it from Ziess or the re-seller? Yes an actual Ziess AE is a phone call away.
 

smryan

Perspective.
We are also in the market for a CMM. I missed the first vendor meeting last week, but we had the Wenzel guys in yesterday and we have already received the three quotes we'd asked for.

Their machine seems impressive (tho I have nothing to compare to). The software has a fairly user friendly graphic/menu interface that I felt I could manage if I had to (and it most likely would be me programming it). The price includes a three day training class in the software use. And - biggest plus - has a SUPER simple operator interface that can be set up pretty easily.

I know price will be a factor for us, but if the prices are comparable this has a lot of "pros" so far and not very many "cons". :2cents:
 
B

bgudauskas

Make sure to get a demo of a Hexagon machine too with PC-DMIS.
 
B

bgudauskas

Why not, competition is good, Hexagon support and software are competitive, I think it's a good idea. I work for them, but I'm only suggesting he check them out.

I guess the better question is why not?

Why?

Stijloor.
 
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