New CMM - Zeiss vs Wenzel vs ?? (Any Feedbacks)

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#11
Why not, competition is good, Hexagon support and software are competitive, I think it's a good idea. I work for them, but I'm only suggesting he check them out.

I guess the better question is why not?
We Moderators are concerned about advertising....;)

Stijloor.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
Q

qualitytrec

#12
It has been awhile since I have purchased a CMM. My last one was a horizontal arm Brown and Sharpe. I liked the Zeiss name back then (and now) and if the Wenzel and Zeiss were my choices I would go Zeiss for the types of things I measure (small molds, etc...)
What your measuring and how it is held and where you will measure it all matter so if I had all this info I might choose something different.
Mark
 

smryan

Perspective.
#13
So yesterday we had a Helmel rep visit. Our visit was a bit too short so he'll be sending some video to demo some of the things we had further questions on - but at first glance this software seems to be even more user friendly than the Wenzel.

As I will likely be the one programming it the software is the part of greater interest to me - but hardware wise both systems seem impressive and either would suit our needs.

That Helmel is still servicing (or willing to service) any of the systems they've ever made is a plus for them - no such thing as outdated = unsupported. But reality is that the final decision will be based on price.

I wish I knew who else was scheduled to visit...
 
M

mopar4u

#14
Big Zeiss fan here. If someone is telling you passive scanning is the way to go I would seriously question them.

I try and stay away from the articulating heads because they tend to reduce accuracy. All depends on what type of tolerances you deal with.

People will tell you to don't pay attention to the accuracy specs. I personally use them to point me in the right direction. Narrow down your options and then send some parts and have them do gr&r's on some of your tighter toleranced parts.

I've had a zeiss cmm of some kind for over 11 years and I can honestly say the cmm's are more accurate than the advertised accuracy based on the calibration print outs.

Another thing I like about zeiss is they use the same calypso software on all of there measuring equipment. If you understand how to use calypso on your cmm, you will understand it on any of the zeiss cmms along with there vision systems, ct scanners, etc etc. This can allow for easy program swapping with somebody else.

Application support is perfectly great for me. I have local dealer app help as well as zeiss headquarters help.

There is a decent following and good knowledge base on the zeiss forum on there website.

Downfalls of zeiss is $$$$$. You pay for the name. You pay for each option of the software as well as each seat unless you have a yearly maintenance plan which also costs $$$$. Depending on the version the software can be buggy at times but they usually are able to help you through it. Being German based you find some aspects of the software to be in Genglish (german / english). Its gotten better....

good luck getting a cmm can be exciting.....
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Big Zeiss fan here. If someone is telling you passive scanning is the way to go I would seriously question them.

I try and stay away from the articulating heads because they tend to reduce accuracy. All depends on what type of tolerances you deal with.

People will tell you to don't pay attention to the accuracy specs. I personally use them to point me in the right direction. Narrow down your options and then send some parts and have them do gr&r's on some of your tighter toleranced parts.

I've had a zeiss cmm of some kind for over 11 years and I can honestly say the cmm's are more accurate than the advertised accuracy based on the calibration print outs.

Another thing I like about zeiss is they use the same calypso software on all of there measuring equipment. If you understand how to use calypso on your cmm, you will understand it on any of the zeiss cmms along with there vision systems, ct scanners, etc etc. This can allow for easy program swapping with somebody else.

Application support is perfectly great for me. I have local dealer app help as well as zeiss headquarters help.

There is a decent following and good knowledge base on the zeiss forum on there website.

Downfalls of zeiss is $$$$$. You pay for the name. You pay for each option of the software as well as each seat unless you have a yearly maintenance plan which also costs $$$$. Depending on the version the software can be buggy at times but they usually are able to help you through it. Being German based you find some aspects of the software to be in Genglish (german / english). It's gotten better....

good luck getting a CMM can be exciting.....
Welcome to The Cove Forums! :bigwave::bigwave:

After this glorious and raving review of the Zeiss CMM, one wonders if you are associated with Zeiss? ;)

Stijloor.
 
T

True Position

#18
If the cost is not the concern I do not see how you can go wrong with the Contura G2. While I have not ever personally dealt with a Wenzel I have run B&S and Mitutoyo CMMs and would consider them a major step back from a Zeiss running Calypso.

Zeiss's phone support is very good. I've had some complex issues and been forwarded to the exact person who was able to come up with an answer and emailed me some information I was going to need multiple times.

My only recommendation would be to not install any software updates right away, they occasionally break odd things. (Once there was a bug converting MM to inch measurements inside formulas which I suspect they did not catch in Germany for obvious reasons.) The user forums aren't as active as the PC-DMIS user forum, but there's usually good people who will answer questions.
 
Z

z28tt

#19
Follow up after our visit from the Wenzel guys (app engr & sales). They did a great demo of the software, and best part is that I wasn't able to stump them on how to inspect with our niche-market parts. The Wenzel's use all renishaw scales & probes, and the off the shelf availability seems like a plus. The OpenDMIS software in some ways seemed more versatily than Calypso, because you could get in and manually edit paths where needed, but for all I know, Calypso allows that too... I could also run OpenDMIS on our old Mitutoyo CMM as well, but doubt it for Calypso (and the $$$!). Accuracy specs on the Wenzel LH's is actually better than the Zeiss by 20 millionths, even with the passive scanning head, and I like the idea of an articulating probe where I don't have to come up w/ crazy star probes. Their big (marketing?) push is that the machine has all granite axis, lapped very accurately, and don't need crazy error compensation maps to give good numbers, vs other being made less expensively w/ extrusions & error mapping... On some forum there was a thread about CMM accuracy, and the person kept checking the same part over several hours, and would find the XYZ location would drift as the HVAC would kick on and off. All said and done, the machine would have an extra 100mm of Z, lose 100mm of Y travel, and cost about the same.

We've been talking with one of our customers that's a Zeiss shop, and what will probably push us over the edge is that they could provide programs & support as needed, and the possibility of more business because we can provide data to them in the format they want...
 
A

alspread

#20
I have 6 DCC CMM's. 4 Zeiss machines with all of the Calypso bells and whistles and 2 Hexagon/Brown & Sharpe/Dea machines with PCDMIS. Both softwares have their good points and bad points. If you are not using models you will have some limitations with either software. I can't tell you, with any great certainty which machine is better. Like I said, they both have their good and bad points.
However, I would recommend you look closely at ALL of the costs, both now and in the future.
Do you expect to be adding more machines? More features?
I would also say, from a managers perspective, to definetly go with an articulating head. We have some very extreme tolerances on complex aero engine components and have not found the accuracy degradation to be a problem. Let's face it, the NC machines are making the parts, we're just verifying.
We found that the reduction in throughput with a fixed head was severly limited our ability to efficiently service the shop causing more pressure to get more data out faster. Having a zillion probe configs that need to be qualified all the time was a burden.
The articulating head does consume some of the measuring envelope, so be careful and look closely at the size of parts versus the machine minus the articulating arm length.
Look closely at the cost of clibration and software maintenance agreements in the outt years.

Zeiss sells their software maintenance by the module. That is each additional module adds more software maint costs. Zeiss also markets 3 (I think) differnet levels of machine maintenance when calibration time comes.

Hexagon has one fee for their whole software package (less model translators and Quindos if you need that). Hexagon also bundles their maintenance agreement around a number of machines. So, if you plan to buy more machines, it may be cheaper over the long term with them.

As far as support goes, I have had good experiences with both companies. There were some problems with Zeiss in the early days of calypso, but they're very good now.

Oh, by the way, the Zeiss articulating head has more positions than the Renishaw head, which may or may not be an issue when trying to configure the probe for a feature that is between angles.

Goos luck.

I hope I helpwed alittel.
 
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