New PPAP submission required when changing part number?

C

celso klitzke

#1
Hi every one,

I just received an email from one of my customers. He changed the numbers (codes) of 22 parts. For example, the number was PRT233 and now it is PRT233-00. He says I will have to submit again all 22 PPAP´s.

Is there any other way? I think it´s all waste of time and paper.

Thanks

Celso
 

Wes Bucey

Consultant/Advisor
Moderator
#2
celso klitzke said:
Hi every one,

I just received an email from one of my customers. He changed the numbers (codes) of 22 parts. For example, the number was PRT233 and now it is PRT233-00. He says I will have to submit again all 22 PPAP´s.

Is there any other way? I think it´s all waste of time and paper.

Thanks

Celso
IMO, if the only change is the customer's part numbering system, with no design change, you are justified in resubmitting exisiting PPAP documents with a "rider" explaining that since there was no change in the form, fit, function of the product, you did not have to change the production method.

Personally, I'd try to negotiate just the submission of the rider for the customer to add to his files rather than destroying a forest to reprint the PPAP documents.
 

The Taz!

Quite Involved in Discussions
#3
Good advice Wes. . .

In addition to Wes' comments, a Level 1 PPAP with only the Warrant being sent in this case might suffice. It would be a "Change" and state in the comments section that only the P/N was changed. No change to F,For F. Of course, you'll either need a cross-reference index for your process documentation, or you'll have to update all process control docs; Control Plan, FMEA's, Work Instructions, etc.

Either way, you have some work to do. Get your customer in bed with what ever you do, and see what THEY require. Get it in writing if you can (Objective Evidence).
 
S

SteelWoman

#4
Turn to pages 11 and 12 in the PPAP manual. It lists the conditions under which you do have to notify the customer and/or re-ppap. Basically, if the change does not impact the form, fit, function, performance etc then you're fine. 'Course this table refers to situations where YOU need to notify the CUSTOMER, but I've used it on occasion (successfully, I might add) to point out why a new PPAP is not necessary. This would be, in my book anyway, a HUGE case of not necessary. I've often found that customer's ask for new ppaps in this kind of situation because THEY think THEY are required to - once you point out that it is actually really NOT required, they sometimes just breathe a thankful sigh of relief and go about their business. Worth a shot, anyway.

At BEST, if pushed into a corner on this, I would supply a new warrant, but certainly nothing beyond that.
 
S
#5
Some, but not all, PPAP documentation may change under certain circumstances. Do you have control of the design records? There may be changesrequired to BOM or drawing. Is shipping part of your control plan? If so it may need to be revised to include the new number.
Is your customer quality rep. asking for the PPAP? If not I would contact him for clarification.
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
#6
Some of our suppliers are charging $1000 to do a PPAP. This is common
in the fastener industry. Why not tell the customer you'd be glad to do
the ppap on a billable basis and have your sales rep give him a quote?

This may motivate them to consider the value.
Obviously you need to be judicious and not p*$(% them off - rather
point out that this takes time and $.

Brad
 

Wes Bucey

Consultant/Advisor
Moderator
#7
bpritts said:
Some of our suppliers are charging $1000 to do a PPAP. This is common
in the fastener industry. Why not tell the customer you'd be glad to do
the ppap on a billable basis and have your sales rep give him a quote?

This may motivate them to consider the value.
Obviously you need to be judicious and not p*$(% them off - rather
point out that this takes time and $.

Brad
$1,000. Wow! that's very reasonable. The products must be very simple ones.
Some of my production machines alone booked out at $200 to $300 an hour. Add to that the cost of other personnel involved in a PPAP and the $$$ runs up very quickly. We once took over 6 weeks to fine tune feeds, speeds, tooling, order of cut, in-process inspection, etc. on one family of parts. It was imperative for everyone from customer down through the supplier of a special alloy used in the part that the cycle time be reduced while holding a cpk of 2.0. The machine was out of regular production the entire time.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#8
IF the customer part number is on the various documents that you submitted then you will have to change the documents so that the corect part number appears.
Did he change the drawing as well? sometimes the part number appears on the drawing., then you have a changed drawing. Does the part number appear on the part? this is then a change to the part.

I agree that a level 1 PPAP should be enough with the reason of change part number no other change.
If the customer part number is on the documents then you must change this as if you are audited on this part there will not be an agreement with the documents and the part.

You could annotate with date and reference to the change document the CP, FMEA etc. This would save the forest.

I hope this will help.
 
S
#9
PPAP's are not billable items. They are a requirement as part of the QMS and CSR's that were agreed to when the order was accepted.
Buyers for OEM products normally only know how to say the word PPAP. They don't know what letters mean or what it consists of; and they won't take the time to find out.
Any questions you have concerning PPAP's should be discussed only with the customer quality rep.
 

Wes Bucey

Consultant/Advisor
Moderator
#10
Sam said:
PPAP's are not billable items. They are a requirement as part of the QMS and CSR's that were agreed to when the order was accepted.
Buyers for OEM products normally only know how to say the word PPAP. They don't know what letters mean or what it consists of; and they won't take the time to find out.
Any questions you have concerning PPAP's should be discussed only with the customer quality rep.
It is so sad this ignorance about the process behind the acronym (whether PPAP or FMEA or even FAI) is so rampant throughout corporate puchasing departments throughout the world. Even the purchasing guys with APICS certification would be hard pressed to tell you what the acronym stands for.

Of course, a similar disconnect occurs in the Human Resources department when they ask for BB and MBB and really only want and need a bench technician to do redundant metrology. (Plus, they only want to pay the bench technician wage.)

Any "Champions" out there?

In regard to the Contract Review and payment for PPAP, it only goes to show you how important it is to cover ALL bases when negotiating a contract. PPAP can be expensive. It should be billed separately. (perhaps with a price cap versus "time and materials) No one says you can't negotiate or renegotiate the request for proposal from the customer. (defense contractors do it all the time)

If your company allows itself to be part of a herd, instead of the "partner" so many OEMs give lip service to, then the company has no complaint when it is treated as cattle by the OEM. Ask yourself if your sales department are "order takers" or "sellers."
 

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