New QA Manager - Top Management is Divided - Between a rock and a hard place

[just67horns]

Thanks, I have already figured that out. I will ask for the full audit to get a full list of areas to be addressed.

 

[ElmerP]

Thank you very much Wes & to all of you. When I was transferred to this position, it also came into my mind that I was groomed - to fail & be the scapegoat. But, Scapegoat or not, this responsibility was given to me, so I have to give it my best.

I know my idea is outrageous & Wes is right by saying that “The question of passing the certification is the least consideration here”. But to me right now, the certification is my first priority, because I don’t have any options at the moment. Our customers are already pushing us to comply with the standard & in response I submitted with our AGM’s approval the revised TS project timeline - which I intend to keep. But my plan does not end here. I still have other things in mind. My next move would be to have a pre-audit & I plan not to hide but to open this issue with the auditor.

For our AGM & his allies, this project is of less importance than production & I understand it well. This is the main reason why I came up with this idea because if I mention this to the customer now, not only will my boss kick my butt, but between us & our customers, it will be very bloody, & our production will be greatly affected. What they don’t understand is the value & the credits our company would have if we follow & incorporate the standard into our system.

With the results of the pre-audit & having this issue brought out, I’m sure if they are not going to be enlightened, the little angel called conscience would start to stir their hardened heads & probably give TS some attention. Maybe as a result, an instruction will be issued to give this project full support.

And if we pass the certification, my next move would be to focus on the customers. Slowly incorporate all the requirements into our system & when the next products come (hopefully) try to negotiate & open this up with them.

So my intention of having this outrageous idea is for our company to have a win-win situation. My boss wins, we become certified, and we continue to supply our customer plus slowly-slowly incorporating the standard into our system. Everybody happy! :

To my understanding, the replies I got from this thread are that my idea is unacceptable & there is no other way but to follow the standard religiously. JRKH advised to have everything documented; from now on I will try to do so.

Whew! I’m toasted . If I am the boss, I would definitely hire Wes, unfortunately I’m not.

Please, your honest opinion would be greatly appreciated…

Thank you

 

[JRKH]

ElmarP,

It is obvious that you have thought long and hard on this. I believe you are on as good a path as possible at the moment. The idea of the pre-audit is a good one. Once the auditors get in there and can really see what is going on, I'm sure they will have input that will be educational to all concerned.

As far as the AGM seeing the light, I am afraid that is too much to ask. I suspect that once the pre-audit shows the flaws in the system, he will want to give the system a quick white-wash and pay lip service to suppporting the initiative. Then once the registration audit is over they will try to go back to the old way.

You are correct, however, in your plan to continue to quietly inject more and more TS into the system. Make sure you look for ways to help individuals and areas improve by doing things the right way. Make allies for yourself at midlevel and they may help to quietly put pressure on the upper levels to get things improved.

Good luck and keep us posted.

James

 

[skappesser]

Oh believe me I have walked SEVERAL miles in your shoes. A few years ago my role was a National Quality Manager tasked with facilitating ISO 17025 accreditation of several of our company's facilities around the country. The Vice-President of the company wanted the certifications to use in their marketing efforts to grow the customer base - not yet aware of the benefits a solid QMS could provide.

It was all left to me on a modest budget.

I spent most of my time educating employees at all levels. I needed them to buy into it. If I hit snags I asked the Vice President for help and he would go to bat for me every time. That kind of help is Key - you are spinning your wheels if top management won't push for you. I focused on what our customers want, and how the Standard can help structure a means to get there. I walked the talk and was honest and earnest in all my efforts at towing the Quality line.

It seemed like when they saw that I was genuine (even though I was aware of many of the nonconformances and gaps), I gained respect and employees started to listen to me and things started to really happen. Managers helped with gap analysis and I provided to-do lists for CAs and audit-readiness. It was important to ensure there was budget and justification for the CAs. Within 2 years every facility targeted had their papers...
I hope this helps - your situation and players are different...

 

[just67horns]

ElmarP,

It is obvious that you have thought long and hard on this. I believe you are on as good a path as possible at the moment. The idea of the pre-audit is a good one. Once the auditors get in there and can really see what is going on, I'm sure they will have input that will be educational to all concerned.

As far as the AGM seeing the light, I am afraid that is too much to ask. I suspect that once the pre-audit shows the flaws in the system, he will want to give the system a quick white-wash and pay lip service to suppporting the initiative. Then once the registration audit is over they will try to go back to the old way.

You are correct, however, in your plan to continue to quietly inject more and more TS into the system. Make sure you look for ways to help individuals and areas improve by doing things the right way. Make allies for yourself at midlevel and they may help to quietly put pressure on the upper levels to get things improved.

Good luck and keep us posted.

James

The Pre-audit helps, but, in my case, I do not think my TOP Management read the report. They didn't have the time, and still I am trying to get their attention. They did negotiate the price of a consultant, but when reading 5 pages was involved, I just cannot say if they ever read it. When you get pre-audit results, make sure they read it. Make sure they know which items will cause failure or delay. List all major problems that you see before and after an "experts" report comes out. They don't listen to you, but sometimes, paying for someone extra all of a sudden, sometimes they listen. In my case I have failed and am one week from the auditors who will most likely not pass us. If they do pass us, it will be worse than failure. Our company will never improve if that happens, and TS will only hang on the wall.

 

[fuzzy]

Much Luck...

And if we pass the certification, my next move would be to focus on the customers. Slowly incorporate all the requirements into our system & when the next products come (hopefully) try to negotiate & open this up with them.


Thank you

My experience in culture change says that to effect said change from a middle-management position will be very difficult and very long. It's always nice to have a plan, but realistic timing will intrude upon getting results. In a small privately-held(?) operation, IMHO, the chances / pace of cultural change may be even slower (but not always, depends on leadership).

Are you patient enough to wait years? Five? Ten?:

 

[Craig H.]

Re: Much Luck...

So, how did the audit go?

 

[just67horns]

Re: Much Luck...

1 major, 12 minor.
I chose to do what is correct for the company which was doing our best to minimize the damage (NCR's). Believe it or not, we did pretty well The 5.0 issue was missed, but, I have their attention and more respect. Now, I'm attempting to address all the NCR in a teamlike fashion. I'm asking for root cause, planning, and responsibility from the process owners. A lot of firsts happening here! So far, we're moving forward, but all employees are at 125% and I don't know when it will break. There are still a few who are fighting TS. "We've always done it that way", and "we've argued that one before and it was decided...." I could go on for hours on the audit. It was an experience! More later, probably in a new thread. Maybe this weekend, if I can think about it...???

 

[just67horns]

OK, WE PASSED!

We had 13 non coonformances, one major. We fixed them. Somewhat gridgingly at times, but we did it. I pushed, I documented, I pushed, and the auditors, in my opinion, made it easy for us to pass.

The organization still has weaknesses, mostly in my opinion in the area of presenting metrics and reacting to them, and just presenting metrics, as bad performance usually gets a knee jerk reaction from our disconnected section 5 leaders. The like to fire people who don't have the time to do all that they are asked to do.

If I could get future commitment from management to get better, we'd be fine, but I am going to try regardless. I am here for quality, not the perception of it, as many salesman like to sell.

Our auditors did OK, and told us what we should be doing, but, the problem is in section 5. Our areas where we need to improve are clear to me and all the workforce, but our leaders prefer to stay out of it. Still. I am trying to get them more involved and find that the organization prefers to keep them in the dark, as they are well aware of the knee jerk. I will continue to push for improvement. I will try to keep you all informed!

 

[skappesser]

If there is little or no commitment from management in regards to your QMS then it's like trying to nail jello to the wall. Most quality system standards specify that management commitment is key. It's common sense! Sounds like the mindset among your management is that quality is your job alone, when in reality the responsibility is supposed to be theirs and your are supposed to be a facilitator. I was in your shoes once. The personal frustration was unreasonable and literally making me sick with stress. I simply found a better employer who offered me a better salary... doesn't hurt to always be floating your resume "out there"!