New QA Manager - Top Management is Divided - Between a rock and a hard place

[Helmut Jilling]

If there is little or no commitment from management in regards to your QMS then it's like trying to nail jello to the wall. Most quality system standards specify that management commitment is key. It's common sense! Sounds like the mindset among your management is that quality is your job alone, when in reality the responsibility is supposed to be theirs and your are supposed to be a facilitator. I was in your shoes once.

The personal frustration was unreasonable and literally making me sick with stress. I simply found a better employer who offered me a better salary... doesn't hurt to always be floating your resume "out there"!

Good for you! Congratulations!

 

[lgibson]

In reading your posts, I thought I was reading about the company I work for. Mine is a small company in which the owner is the "manager". However, the "manager" is rarely around and as long as he is making money doesn't care how things are. I took on the job of Quality Administrator knowing this (I worked at another company he owned) as a challenge. Fortunately for me, the need to be ceritified to AS9100 is a requirement of our largest customer. I looked around at the mess and shook my head and screamed (not literally) to everyone that non-cooperation is notan option. No certification, no customers, NO JOBS!

Anyway, since this is a late reply to your last post I'm not sure your even still there and this may not help, but try to find some leverage as I did. If there is no leverage and top management doesn't want to cooperate, look for other employement. The model of a company starts at the top. If the top is non-cooperative, usually the rest of the company follows the example.

 

[just67horns]

I'm still amazed at the number of times I have been told to plan my exit strategy, or as you say, look for other employment.

Discouraging.

I have had tough jobs before. Some might say that it is amazing getting our TS certification here, and I have received alot of credit for our accomplishment. BUT, I have built factories, production lines over 1000 feet long. I have had many other accomplishments, but this was another one.

Isn't it all of our jobs to accomplish these tasks against problems, issues, and lack of support?

The tack I have taken is slow and hard, but, I told my management what the problems were, and I told them that the problem is them. When we fail or pass, the data will support what I have told them. The auditors glossed over the lack of top managment involvement, but they will be back. Now, I also have the presidents cell phone number, and He told me when to call.

Progress is slow, but long term staying may be better for all. Long term, me and my company may do better. I have had 10 jobs in 15 years. I have never been fired. Moving never got me permanent advancement. I got a big raise once, and then when things got tough at that company, I was the engineering manager, high paid, and the first to go.

As quality people- don't run when you don't get your way. Show them how our techniques pay for themselves! Keep pushing regardless of obstacles. Quality has to be sold just like engineering. If it doesn't improve something why do it. Find the ways to show the benefit, or you will be looking for work before you wish it to be that way!

 

[Helmut Jilling]

I'm still amazed at the number of times I have been told to plan my exit strategy, or as you say, look for other employment.

Discouraging.

I have had tough jobs before. Some might say that it is amazing getting our TS certification here, and I have received alot of credit for our accomplishment. BUT, I have built factories, production lines over 1000 feet long. I have had many other accomplishments, but this was another one.

Isn't it all of our jobs to accomplish these tasks against problems, issues, and lack of support?

The tack I have taken is slow and hard, but, I told my management what the problems were, and I told them that the problem is them. When we fail or pass, the data will support what I have told them. The auditors glossed over the lack of top managment involvement, but they will be back. Now, I also have the presidents cell phone number, and He told me when to call.

Progress is slow, but long term staying may be better for all. Long term, me and my company may do better. I have had 10 jobs in 15 years. I have never been fired. Moving never got me permanent advancement. I got a big raise once, and then when things got tough at that company, I was the engineering manager, high paid, and the first to go.

As quality people- don't run when you don't get your way. Show them how our techniques pay for themselves! Keep pushing regardless of obstacles. Quality has to be sold just like engineering. If it doesn't improve something why do it. Find the ways to show the benefit, or you will be looking for work before you wish it to be that way!

Well, as long as you have the willingness and energy to tackle it, more power to you! We have to applaud your gumption! We wish you success.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Well, as long as you have the willingness and energy to tackle it, more power to you! We have to applaud your gumption! We wish you success.

I agree with hjilling, just66horns, but the nature of a discussion forum is we talk about the most probable successful course of action, based on our collective experience.

I may have the experience, knowledge, and force of personality to be a successful change agent in a lot of situations, but that same combination of characteristics and attributes gives me the ability to determine when I should cut and run. I can't give that same ability to someone else in a few paragraphs in a discussion forum. My best guess is that a guy who already has the same abilities as I to succeed against poor managers and indifferent culture isn't likely to write asking for advice. The guy who does write is probably better off cutting and running instead of being frustrated banging his head against strong opposition.

 

[fuzzy]

I agree with hjilling, just66horns, but the nature of a discussion forum is we talk about the most probable successful course of action, based on our collective experience.

I may have the experience, knowledge, and force of personality to be a successful change agent in a lot of situations, but that same combination of characteristics and attributes gives me the ability to determine when I should cut and run. I can't give that same ability to someone else in a few paragraphs in a discussion forum. My best guess is that a guy who already has the same abilities as I to succeed against poor managers and indifferent culture isn't likely to write asking for advice. The guy who does write is probably better off cutting and running instead of being frustrated banging his head against strong opposition.

I may not be be as broadly skilled as Wes , but I was going to say that just66horns is the one to be the best judge of when to bail and when not. I've made my choices to leave my various companies when my assessment concluded that the confrontational cost to improve / resolve the situation exceeded the personal benefit; i.e. to confront top management directly, risks direct retaliation that I may be un-prepared to receive (You're fired!). If they don't get it, and don't have a probability of embracing a QMS, then I start to look for my exit. Doesn't mean I don't try while I'm there but...

Just66horns has to make these judgements for himself; with our advice or without it. He did ask, but as with all solutions, he is the "decider" as "W" would say.
Good luck and and don't stop asking....

 

[skappesser]

just66horns said:
"...As quality people - don't run when you don't get your way..."

HA! That's the rub! It is not a matter of getting MY way! We all know that ownership of the company's quality culture belongs with sr. management, not the "quality-boy" in the smallest office. I would still be banging my head on something hard at that company if posting my resume on the internet hadn't attracted an opportunity for me to earn more working with a better company...

 

[Jim Wynne]

just66horns said:
"...As quality people - don't run when you don't get your way..."

HA! That's the rub! It is not a matter of getting MY way! We all know that ownership of the company's quality culture belongs with sr. management, not the "quality-boy" in the smallest office. I would still be banging my head on something hard at that company if posting my resume on the internet hadn't attracted an opportunity for me to earn more working with a better company...

The plain fact is that if you're in this business long enough, sooner or later you're likely to be faced with deciding whether or not it's worth it to keep casting pearls before swine. Each of us has to make the decision based on our own economic needs, motivations, experience, patience and tenacity. Some people are perfectly content to be Sisyphus, pushing the big rock up the hill only to see it roll back down after nearing the top, and then repeating the process over and over. Others will make the trip once or twice, say "the he11 with it," and go look for smaller hills and rocks.

 

[qualeety]

to quote Art of War by SunTzu

Thus we may know that there are five essentials
for victory:
(1) He will win who knows when to fight and when
not to fight.
(2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior
and inferior forces.
(3) He will win whose army is animated by the same
spirit throughout all its ranks.
(4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take
the enemy unprepared.
(5) He will win who has military capacity and is
not interfered with by the sovereign.

or to quote "Gambler" by Kenny Rogers

You got to know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away
And know when to run.
Every gambler knows that the secret to survivin'
Is knownin' what to throw away and knowin' what to keep
Cause every hand's a winner, and every hand's a loser

I think above quotes say it all!!!!

 

[just67horns]

Well, I hope this isn't my last entry. I pushed too hard. I know many of you told me to plan my exit strategy, but the following has now happened.

I think I got the company certified. It has been sent to the IATF twice now. The registrar thinks they have gotten it right.
I went to my boss and demanded a raise. I said basically pay me the average that a quality manager should be paid.
They fired me. I had many points to make.
This company was QS certified and never did anything for improvement. They remained aftermarket mentality. They asked me to get the place TS certified. We did. The certificate is still in the mail. The old quality manager quit, and after a year of arguing the process approach, metrics and improvement, the stress got to me. I have given up with Quality for the second time! Damn. What is wrong with America???
The management of my company never showed any evidence of supporting resources, or any section 5.0 requirements. No supplier development. No nothing. It was always.. we'll get to it through continuous improvement, but, we are busy now.

I taught all the training classes (nothing was funded for any training for any person for any subject, I had to volunteer my friday lunches, and so did all my students, a very good bunch!). I was a leader in this company, but management chose to not spend anything.

The registrar was clearly blind. I bluffed our way through it hoping we'd get better in the future. Its a shame. Boy oh boy, when their customers start to ask for a PPAP or APQP, is this organization in for a shock!

Anybody have a proactive company looking for a contributor in the quality department? I love automotive, and I love quality. There must be a place for me.

How many of you stuggle with companies that cover up and lie to the auditors. How many of you try to convince auditors that you are doing the right things, when you just do not have the time as you are so massively overloaded with reactive work that your organization does not even understand goal, metrics, and the basics of training and empowerment?

Sorry for the down note, but you all have been my friends. I just want to share my note with a group that will understand.

I will try to remain in quality, but, it looks like an up-hill battle.