No corrective actions because no nonconformances in a couple of years

[Antonio Vieira]

One of my customers, as a consultant, has a fantastic Quality Management System. It’s based on the high human resources qualification in quality management knowledge.
They are ISO 9001 certified since 1993.
In the last two years this organization didn’t find any cause to necessarily implement a corrective action (according to 8.5.2 of ISO 9001:2000).
Their improvement system (8.5 of ISO 9001:2000) is based on preventive actions made either on the design processes or on the results of processes efficiency measurement.
They don’t have any complaints from their customers, and on customers satisfaction surveys they make, this organization gets always the highest classifications on all items.

Funny thing happened in this year’s last audit, there was an observation in the audit report, in which the auditor said that the company isn’t using the corrective action process according to their procedure.

The procedure is made because it’s a request of the standard, but as we don’t have any reason to use it (there aren’t any nonconformities in the last two years, or at least the system couldn’t find any...), it was never used.
I think I’m going to answer the registrar saying that this organization is already at a higher level than they are...

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

I think I’m going to answer the registrar saying that this organization is already at a higher level than they are...

No, no... You obviously ask him what error he wants you to do in order to get an opportunity to use the procedure... Elementary.

Alas, I am in no position to to ask that question myself... .

/Claes

 

[Antonio Vieira]

Claes,

That’s precisely what the quality manager asked me:
- Should we make a mistake deliberately or ask a customer to complaint, in order to apply what we wrote in the procedure?

The auditor said that we had nonconformities for sure, but the system wasn’t able enough to catch then.
He was there for 2 days and didn’t found any...

AV

 

[RoxaneB]

This sounds like a wonderful opportunity to evolve the QMS into a BMS! Why wait for a product defect or a Customer complaint....talk with your other Stakeholders. Implement Corrective Actions based on noise complaints or other issues from the Community...suggestions from the Employees...relationships with Suppliers...and, if publicly traded, Shareholder concerns.

If Quality can no better, what about the Business?

 

[Marc]

If Quality can no better, what about the Business?

I have a client with no customer complaints in several years and even that one was bogus,

No, no... You obviously ask him what error he wants you to do in order to get an opportunity to use the procedure... Elementary.

but they did a corrective action to have one and it also serves to show the 'system works'. They first registered in 1997. Every new auditor is skeptical at first but when they see the operation they understand why. Then they drag out the 'What about growing the business' aspect. My client tells them:

We like the business as it is. We're small, like family. We enjoy what we do. We're in at about 7am and out every day by 3.30. We've been in business since the early 1960's and like it this way. Why should we 'grow' the business?

It never ceases to amaze me how few people are satisfied with what they have and make growth or other change 'neccessary'. Some folks, myself included, must be a rare breed to be satisfied with what they have when it's working for them.

The folks I mention above have been making the same stuff for over 40 years and when I started working with them (a customer required QS-9000 back then but I advised them to refuse, and they did, but they did agree to ISO 9001) there were 14 people all of whom had been there for over 10 years. Since 1997, 2 have left and 1 was replaced.

Every time I go there (twice a year) I just love it. No stress. All happy people. No overtime. No weekends. No rushed schedules. They make a good product and always have. We have discussed the value of ISO 9001 to them and while they will tell you the implementation 'taught' them a few things, it is really not of value other than it being a customer requirement.

Not that they don't change. They replace equipment with newer equipment when they feel it's 'time'. When I first went there they had one computer in the place and it was only used for making barcoded labels for several customers - Now almost everyone has a computer, they're all networked, paper has almost been eliminated. A number of such internal changes have occurred - They do keep up with the times, so to speak.

This company blends industrial chemicals. They will never be DuPont or other major chemical company. But I'd rather work for (with) them than any major company.

I'm just throwing this in as 'food for thought'.

Edit Add: BTW - This is a company I do internal audits for once a year. A couple of years ago an auditor started to cite them for "Ineffective Internal Audits" because for several years there were no findings. The management rep at that time halted the auditor and pointed out that the registrar's auditors had not found any nonconformances in the previous 3 years and that this being the case the registrar must not be effective either. After a few rounds of chatter and a 'threat' by my client to find another registrar, the auditor dropped the 'finding'. As usual, that auditor left with zero findings and zero observations (opportunities for improvement or whatever you want to call their 'consulting' aspect).

 

[Caster]

An enviable result

One of my customers, as a consultant, has a fantastic Quality Management System. It’s based on the high human resources qualification in quality management knowledge.

In the last two years this organization didn’t find any cause to necessarily implement a corrective action (according to 8.5.2 of ISO 9001:2000). Their improvement system (8.5 of ISO 9001:2000) is based on preventive actions made either on the design processes or on the results of processes efficiency measurement.

They don’t have any complaints from their customers, and on customers satisfaction surveys they make, this organization gets always the highest classifications on all items.

Hello António Vieira

OK, I am now jealous and curious.

What can you tell us about this company? How did they get to this state?

What is the culture that makes this possible?

Is it a recent thing or has the company always been like this?

Is this passion lead from the top?

What was your role?

Would they have achieved this without ISO?

Finally, are they making a profit?

I am always looking for a good new success story to “give me strength for the fight.”

I’d ignore the registrar, I agree with you, this company seems light years ahead of the game….the effort up front in design and prevention results in less need for corrective action (fire fighting).

I’d be tempted to answer the registrar with a Corrective Action plan that shows you are looking for a better registrar!

 

[Antonio Vieira]

Dear Caster,

OK, I am now jealous and curious.

Curious it’s normal, but jealous there’s no reason to be, as you will see.

What can you tell us about this company? How did they get to this state?

It’s a small part of a large company. Their job is to implement and support the implementation of quality, environmental and safety systems in different areas of the whole organization. This department doesn’t work outside the main organization – their price is too expensive for the market. So their clients are only the rest of the company.
They are ISO 9001 certified since 1993. As almost all organizations in the beginning the standard was very useful. Now it’s just another tool...
Everybody that works there are Engineers. All of them know a lot about quality systems, that’s their job.
So everyone knows what is expected to do without making mistakes.
If you have high trained personnel, it’s easier to get excellent results. So they started to know what common errors are and each service has several preventive actions that must be done in order to don’t be surprised with mistakes that could lead to nonconformities.
This took more than 5 years to implement. The quality manager said they are not perfect, just because no one is (yet).
Now all the services after the design process have at least 4 or 5 preventive actions that the service leader must do during the service duration.

What is the culture that makes this possible?

Of course it was their “quality culture” that took them to this level. Imagine that all the employees of your company knowing as much as you know about quality systems. Do you still have any quality related problems with your customers or your registrar?

Is it a recent thing or has the company always been like this?

As it happens everywhere this has been an improvement process. When they started there were few people here talking about quality systems.

Is this passion lead from the top?

Yes, the new general manager is also a quality guy. Lucky them...

What was your role?

Why do these guys need an outside person?
Just because they wanted to get other experiences, they just work for the same company all the time.
I was just consultant that also had the chance to learn a lot only by working with them.
On opposition with other places I worked, in this company we have time to think. (This is very important!)
So, I and their quality manager, we are always trying to get information out of books, magazines like “Quality Progress” and other sources. We do this during normal day work!
We call this “practice” the worldwide benchmark. (Just a joking)

Would they have achieved this without ISO?

As I told, the standard was very useful in the beginning. I think the same happens with all the organizations.

Finally, are they making a profit?

That’s the point. As they just working for the same company, we may say this is not a very profitable department. The company considers this area as “giving indirect profits”. I don’t know if you understand this point of view.

I am always looking for a good new success story to “give me strength for the fight.”

This is not a very good example of what we can find elsewhere. I would say this is an unfair reality..., but keep fighting!

AV