No Job Description for Skilled Employees - An Audit Nonconformance?

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#1
We got an minor observation from the external auditor as follows; I would like to clarify more on the standard requirment on this subject.

" Duties and Responsibilities were not defined both for skilled and semi-skilled employees like electrician,plumber,mason,labour,helper,painter etc.,"

If standard demands, give me the clause no.

Kindly give your inputs.
 
Last edited:
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

We got an minor observation from the external auditor as follows; I would like to clarify more on the standard requirement on this subject.

"Duties and Responsibilities were not defined both for skilled and semi-skilled employees like electrician, plumber, mason, labour helper, painter, etc.,"

If standard demands, give me the clause no.

Kindly give your inputs.
What requirement was cited by the auditor?
Look at "Responsibility and Authority."

5.5.1 Responsibility and authority
Top management shall ensure that responsibilities and authorities are defined and communicated within the organization.
In the USA, many companies define these in job descriptions.

Stijloor.
 

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#3
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

What requirement was cited by the auditor?

Look at "Responsibility and Authority."



In the USA, many companies define these in job descriptions.

Stijloor.
"As per 5.5.1,Responsibility and Authority requirement he has given us this observation. But our management disagree with this finding. So, i want to know you people opinion on this finding. Do we have to fulfill this requirement as per standard??/"
 

JoCam

Trusted Information Resource
#4
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

"As per 5.5.1,Responsibility and Authority requirement he has given us this observation. But our management disagree with this finding. So, i want to know you people opinion on this finding. Do we have to fulfill this requirement as per standard??/"
So how do you audit competency of Employees without a list of the competencies they require to perform their role? Furthermore, how do the Employees know what they are supposed to be doing, and who they are responsible for and report to?
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

The standard demands what has been stated.

That does not mean you need to have "job descriptions" as most of us think of them.

you could do a job duty matrix, for example.
Put a list of jobs or procedures across the top and a list of positions down the side and check off what position needs to know how to do what job or follow what procedure.
That should meet the requirement of the standard if everone is aware of it and trained in the approriate procedures.
 
#6
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

We got an minor observation from the external auditor as follows; I would like to clarify more on the standard requirment on this subject.

" Duties and Responsibilities were not defined both for skilled and semi-skilled employees like electrician,plumber,mason,labour,helper,painter etc.,"

If standard demands, give me the clause no.

Kindly give your inputs.
Before I can answer, I'd need to know if these people are involved in the scope of the quality management system and are part of the creation and delivery of product/service to your customer. If they are not, for example, they are skilled trades working in and around your production site, with no impact on product quality, I'd agree with your management!
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#7
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

As Scott has stated so well, it matters little if you call it a job descrition or something else, if your people do not know what their responsibilities and authorities are, how do you get any work done? How do your supervisors/managers assess an individual's ability to do the work if you don't know what they are supposed to do? How do your internal auditors audit them? How does your training needs assessment work if you don't know what people need to know?

Don't get hung up on the term job description. That is not important. The fact remains that you need to define what responsibilities and authorities are.
 

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#8
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

What requirement was cited by the auditor?
Look at "Responsibility and Authority."



In the USA, many companies define these in job descriptions.

Stijloor.
So how do you audit competency of Employees without a list of the competencies they require to perform their role? Furthermore, how do the Employees know what they are supposed to be doing, and who they are responsible for and report to?
The competancy of employees are being assessed by means of experience and qualification. Also, the skills were assessed during the personal interview.

Employees are put in work site for the first 1 to 3 months under their supervisors to explain about their duties and reporting structure..
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#9
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

The competancy of employees are being assessed by means of experience and qualification. Also, the skills were assessed during the personal interview.

Employees are put in work site for the first 1 to 3 months under their supervisors to explain about their duties and reporting structure..
So obviously, you know what the responsibilities and authorities are. So, document them somewhere. This is not as hard as most people try to make it. (I know, I've gone through this with management trying to make it complicated):notme:
 

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#10
Re: Not having job description for skilled employees (technicians) an audit observati

Before I can answer, I'd need to know if these people are involved in the scope of the quality management system and are part of the creation and delivery of product/service to your customer. If they are not, for example, they are skilled trades working in and around your production site, with no impact on product quality, I'd agree with your management!
All these trade people are having impact on the quality of the product. (Mechanical,Electrical and Plumbing works- Construction)
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
B Qualifcations of Staffing Agency Employees to meet job description General Auditing Discussions 6
M Nonconformity for missing form number on the job description document Nonconformance and Corrective Action 1
N I updated my Job Description - Critiques Appreciated Career and Occupation Discussions 22
R Should the CEO Need a Job Description? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
S R&D Documentation Manager Responsibilities Job Description Career and Occupation Discussions 1
P TS 16949 Clause 5.5.1 and Personnel Job Description Requirements Human Factors and Ergonomics in Engineering 7
Q Buyer Job Description needed Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
S Quality Team Job Description and Organization Chart wanted Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
J Production Manager Job Description example wanted Career and Occupation Discussions 6
A Quality Control Laboratory Technician Job Description IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
L Job description for an ISO 14001 Coordinator/Administrative Assistant Career and Occupation Discussions 3
R Information Security Officer Job Description IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 5
K Quality Responsibilities (job description) of Line Managers Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 8
Q Full Job Description and Responsibilities in ISO 9000? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
D Job Description and Responsibilities for a New Quality Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 8
D Preparing a job description that meets the ISO 9001:2008 standard requirements ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
S QA (Quality Assurance) and RA (Regulatory Affairs) Manager Job Description Other Medical Device and Orthopedic Related Topics 5
R Company Director - Competency and Documented Job Description Requirements Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
S Document Control Job Description Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3
B Covering Quality Manager/QMR JD (Job Description) with QMR Roles in Manual? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
P Quality Engineer - Job description Career and Occupation Discussions 8
Q Quality Supervisor Job Description - What are the duties of a Quality Supervisor? Career and Occupation Discussions 4
C You are a qualified system engineer? Job description for QS engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 10
N Quality Engineer Job Description - What should be the function of a Quality Engineer? Career and Occupation Discussions 9
A What is the job description of a Quality Engineer? Career and Occupation Discussions 6
W Person / job specifications / description - A generic form or template Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 5
Wes Bucey As a supplier, any comments on this job description? Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 8
C Calibration Engineer - Looking for information to develop a job description General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
F Seeking QA Engineer Job Description Career and Occupation Discussions 2
M Job Description: Job summary, list of duties, basic relationships, qualification ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
L Must All Documents be on a Document Matrix including Each Job Description? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 32
D QA (Quality Assurance) Engineer Job Description Career and Occupation Discussions 4
A Physical / Mental Capabilities and Working Conditions in Job Description? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Raffy Training Competency - Job List vs. Job Description vs. Task Inventory ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
M Job Description for a Document Manager Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
M ISO 9001 Truck Transportation Position (Job) Description Career and Occupation Discussions 1
D QS9000 - Changes in personel requirements to match the job description QS-9000 - American Automotive Manufacturers Standard 5
E Free Generic Job Description Templates Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 3
Randy Department of Labor Job Description - Seeking Help Career and Occupation Discussions 22
was named killer Job Opportunity-Quality Engineer-Tampa Florida Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
Marc Job Opportunity – Quality Assurance Specialist - Suspense 7 April 2021 Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
L Job Aids for administrative staff in GLP environment Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
K Looking for a job as Quality Engineer Career and Occupation Discussions 2
J New Job Position - Achieving ISO 13485 Certification ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 5
XRAY_3121 New Job with Wholesale Distributor Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 0
N Looking to Impress - New Job - Advice, Thoughts, Comments Welcome Career and Occupation Discussions 23
C Refreshing an old and boring topic - Job descriptions and Roles vs Process Documentation ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 38
BeaBea Organizational Charts and Job Titles Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 20
M IATF 16949 8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups - Do we need secondary check? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
B Product Safety Responsibility - Job shop such as a machine shop AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10

Similar threads

Top Bottom