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No Management Representative? Losing money ever since they became ISO 9001 certified

J

Jonell

#1
Hi everyone,

I have not posted on here in some time, but I do visit occasionally to do some reading/brushing up.

I'm currently working as an contract sales rep for a small company (less than 10 employees). Although this company is ISO 9001 registered, they have been losing money on a continuous basis, and the owner claims that they have been losing money every since they became ISO certified 4 or 5 years ago. My opinion is that they are losing money due to poor business management/lack of management support. For example, a product was a month late in being shipped to the customer, and when I questioned the reason why, nobody knew, nor had anybody did any kind of a corrective action investigation to find out why. The owner does not have a business plan, claims that he has never had one in the 18 years that he has had the company.

Anyways, the owner decided to lay off 2 people in order to try and save money/turn a profit, and you guessed it, one of those people was his only QA person, who is also the Management Representative for ISO.

I had just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this?

Jonell
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#3
Jonell said:
Hi everyone,

I have not posted on here in some time, but I do visit occasionally to do some reading/brushing up.

I'm currently working as an contract sales rep for a small company (less than 10 employees). Although this company is ISO 9001 registered, they have been losing money on a continuous basis, and the owner claims that they have been losing money every since they became ISO certified 4 or 5 years ago. My opinion is that they are losing money due to poor business management/lack of management support. For example, a product was a month late in being shipped to the customer, and when I questioned the reason why, nobody knew, nor had anybody did any kind of a corrective action investigation to find out why. The owner does not have a business plan, claims that he has never had one in the 18 years that he has had the company.

Anyways, the owner decided to lay off 2 people in order to try and save money/turn a profit, and you guessed it, one of those people was his only QA person, who is also the Management Representative for ISO.

I had just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this?

Jonell

A difficult scenario, to be sure. However...

1. This violates his agreement to abide by the requirements of ISO standard.

2. From the little that you described, ISO is not causing his problems, nor will it automatically solve them.

3. I hope you have dusted off your resume and are protecting yourself, as well...
 

harry

Super Moderator
#4
Hi Jonell,

Sometimes we just have to face the realities of life - one of which is the 'truth' hurts! If you give the most beautiful rose in the world to a monkey, it's just another part of a plant to them. Infact, they blame you for the torns that come with the flower. Monkeys are monkeys, maybe they will evolved to be like man in 50 million years!

There are plenty of such in a developing economy like ours. Looking at the positive angle, it's time real 'man' takes over - plenty of opportunities around.
 
Last edited:

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
hjilling said:
A difficult scenario, to be sure. However...

1. This violates his agreement to abide by the requirements of ISO standard.

2. From the little that you described, ISO is not causing his problems, nor will it automatically solve them.

3. I hope you have dusted off your resume and are protecting yourself, as well...

hjilling,

Response to number 1: Maybe the owner is deciding to be the Management Representative themselves. That wouldn't violate his agreement would it? The standard doesn't require that the Management Representative has to be from the Quality organization. It requires that there be someone to represent management.

However you do have some valid points in my opinion.


Coury Ferguson
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#6
Firing (um, laying off) the management rep is perhaps the smallest of violations to the ISO agreement. Sure, an owner can claim anyone is the management rep, including himself, but if his name isn't anywhere to be seen in the system's management path it's a hard claim to prove.

If the management decides there is no need to follow the procedures, there is a very large violation right there.

If there is no pursuit of corrective actions or continual improvement, those are two more violations. Failure to note outcomes and measure effectiveness add to the nails in this fellow's ISO coffin.

There seems to be a very large misunderstanding at work. He seems to think ISO will make him money. He's wrong, of course. Doing things well makes the money, the ISO journey was just made to establish the structure.

I've seen his type before. Make the program so it's possible to get contracts, then forget all about what is written and do as the seat of ther pants see fit.

It's unlikely this fellow will change. I agree with the advice to head for higher ground. It is a good time to look for such opportunities.
 
#7
There could be more to this than meets the eye.......

perhaps the boss doesn't know what 'ISO' is supposed to do for his business. Perhaps he did what a lot of bosses do, hire someone to get them registered and maybe, the MR did that but put in a bureaucratic system, which some low cost registrar then sealed with a certificate. Who knows?

Someone should be able to help the boss turn it around;)

Andy
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#8
A losing battle

AndyN said:
Someone should be able to help the boss turn it around;)
Andy
Sure. The customers and the competitors will turn him around. One way....or the other.....
This case seems like just another example of the prototypical approach to ISO 9001 certification. You do it for marketing purposes. You don't implement a meaningful QMS. You don't bother with the cultural changes that most effective QMS's demand. You don't drive dysfunction out. Business as usual. A lone guy writing the manual, filling out forms, "keeping the system" and dressing windows....
You keep your business just like it used to be. But now, you are ISO 9001 certified. No changes in processes, no changes in sales.... just the added cost of the 3rd party auditor...
What surprises me (a little bit) is the fact that the owner (apparently) did not cancel the certificate. If he is willing to fire people to cut costs, he should have cancelled his ISO 9001 certificate.
 
#9
Sidney Vianna said:
What surprises me (a little bit) is the fact that the owner (apparently) did not cancel the certificate. If he is willing to fire people to cut costs, he should have cancelled his ISO 9001 certificate.
It's cheap marketing to keep it................:lmao:

Andy
 
#10
Hello Jonell :bigwave:Sorry to hear that you are in dire straits...
Jonell said:
I had just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on this?
Just one: A company does not have to promote quality and improvement. Nor does it have to stay in business...

I don't know if your paycheck provider is about to start a death spiral, but the advice to start polishing your resumé sounds like a good one.

/Claes
 
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