No Management Representative? Losing money ever since they became ISO 9001 certified

[Wes Bucey]

Wes wouldn't give up Chicago for Southern California

Coury Ferguson

Maybe not full time, but I sure would pass up some of the winters!
Seriously, the longest I ever had to be actually on site in one of our takeovers before we groomed worthy managers to take over was between 4 and 6 months. Sometimes we held the company for as long as three years before flipping it for a profit and one or more of our partners would be on site for a number of days every month in addition to multiple phone calls, faxes, and telexes (this was before email and streaming video, folks!) With modern communication methods, actual on-site time could be far less today! I never decried absentee ownership, only absentee folks who ignored the business.

 

[Wes Bucey]

The statement quoted below, puts th whole problem with ISO and registrar's in perspective.

The whole audit went like that, and I wrote up many non-conformances. 2 weeks later, the registrar auditor came in, spent 3 hours in the shop and passed them with no nonconformances.


I once again ask the question, except for the trivial few, how many companies have lost their registration during a surveillance audit? The registrars will not do it because it would be a reflection on their competency.

Most companies are after the trophy (certificate) and refuse to grasp the business and process improvement that ISO can lead to if approached correctly. Unfortunately, the registrar's do NOT help with the underlying problem. Rregistration has turned into a VERY BIG money making scheme and nothing is to be done to upset that cart.

This may be gist for a new thread, but here's something to consider:
You wrote in another thread and it is pertinent to your comment here

I was hired to develop an ISO-9000 quality system, but management will not support any efforts in that direction. Managers have told me that a quality system restricts what they can do and COSTS too much.

What did you respond when managers said these things? Many of us just tuck our tails between our legs and slink away.

The most frequent shortcoming of Quality professionals is the tendency to leave passion at the door when we go in to talk to the "powers that be."

Here's the deal:

1. Quality professionals are experts.
2. Quality may not be free, but it does deliver value which outstrips cost.
3. Most managers are completely ignorant of items 1 and 2.

Our primary job as Quality practitioners is not as policemen, but as educators. We are the only ones who can help managers understand we are experts and that we deliver VALUE.

Good salesmen understand the value of a "No!" from a prospect, because it helps them focus on the benefits that are most important to the prospect so they can show how that benefit is met by the product or service offered by the salesman. Similarly, Quality professionals take "No!" from a manager as an opportunity to educate and help managers learn the value and benefit of Quality.

When managers and hiring officers throw up a smokescreen of "designations" regardless whether they are ASQ or consultant-manufactured, the clever Quality practitioner takes that as an opportunity to point out any and all designations are merely pieces of paper; that the most important factor is the underlying Quality tools they represent and, further, ANYBODY can know and use those tools with or without the piece of paper, BUT only if the managers understand the value and benefit of the tools and allow them to be used.

The very best Quality practitioners have a variety of tools in their kit, but the expertise and value they offer is WHEN to use the tool, not merely HOW. Sadly, some folks with designations have only one tool in their kit and so are like my oft-cited grandson with only a hammer - everything looks like a nail to them. The true Quality professional makes it a point to differentiate himself from the hammer-wielding designation holder!

 

[Vicman]

Business practice

Hi Jonell,
I think you need to explain the owner, and you may probably did that:
ISO 9000 is a very good Quality System but, do not replace or substitute all business practices and is not a cure for all!
Here are some of our customers needs:
• Delivers on time
• Proper quantities
• Products that performs to expectations
• Good customer service
• A reasonable price
• And of course make a profit
In order to be competitive suppliers are turning to other manufacturing techniques such as lean manufacturing in order to:
• Reduce process cycle time
• Have a quick-response
• Reduce costs
• Eliminate waste
• Make a profit

Today almost all the techniqes and systems are here for all of us, and all we need to do is to pick up the one that fits our actual needs.

 

[Greg B]

I have always said "The standard - does not make a better product or a better business"...If you make rubbish and don't implement change then you will always make rubbish no matter how good your Work Instructions are or how well you monitor things. The standard is a set of guidlines only...it is not a skill set or a toolbox...If you are a bad businessman/woman then after implementing ISO you will still be one unless you change.

 

[Jonell]

Agree!

I have always said "The standard - does not make a better product or a better business"...If you make rubbish and don't implement change then you will always make rubbish no matter how good your Work Instructions are or how well you monitor things. The standard is a set of guidlines only...it is not a skill set or a toolbox...If you are a bad businessman/woman then after implementing ISO you will still be one unless you change.

Hi Greg,

I think that your statement hits the nail right on the head . Companies struggle and lose money, not because they have become certified to ISO, or any other standard, but because they they refuse to/are afraid of change. It is much more comfortable to continue to do things as they have always been done, rather than to take a hard, honest look at the business and try to figure out how to improve (change) it.

Here's what I think happened with this particular company. When it was started almost 20 years ago, no one else in our area offered the products that they produce. The owner could charge whatever he wanted, take as long as he wanted to get a quote to a customer, and take as long as he wanted to get the product delivered to the customer, maybe make a couple of extra trips to the customer's shop to fix problems with the product he delivered...there was no competition locally to speak of and it was not cost effective for the customers to deal with suppliers that were not local. But things have changed drastically since the company was started. Now, with all of the technology out there, the distance to a suppliers' facility has become almost a non issue. (A customer needs a quote on something, he emails you the drawings and you do a video conference to discuss the project etc.), Unfortunately, the owner is still trying to do business the way he did almost 20 years ago. Customers expect a quick turn-around on quotes, they won't wait 2 to 4 weeks for you to "get around to it". They expect you to deliver the product on the date that you said you would deliver it, not a month after the due date. They also expect the product to correct when it is delivered, not after you've had to take it back to your shop a couple of times to fix the errors. And they want you to be cost competetive, because their customers expect the same from them.

Companies that are not willing to change will become companies that no longer exist.

Jonell

 

[Helmut Jilling]

...Companies struggle and lose money, not because they have become certified to ISO, or any other standard, but because they they refuse to/are afraid of change. It is much more comfortable to continue to do things as they have always been done, rather than to take a hard, honest look at the business and try to figure out how to improve (change) it.

....But things have changed drastically since the company was started....

...Customers expect a quick turn-around on quotes, they won't wait 2 to 4 weeks for you to "get around to it". They expect you to deliver the product on the date that you said you would deliver it, not a month after the due date. They also expect the product to correct when it is delivered, not after you've had to take it back to your shop a couple of times to fix the errors. And they want you to be cost competetive, because their customers expect the same from them.

Companies that are not willing to change will become companies that no longer exist.

Jonell

Boy, you said a mouthful. I agree 100%. (I think you read from my sermon notes, in fact). I would add, this happens because often companies don't understand how much the landscape has changed. Or, they don't want to understand so they hide in their offices.

PS: That is why benchmarks are so important. In another thread, I am requesting benchmark data. So far, no one has posted any? Are we all doing that badly, or does no one want to know what is really happening out there? In automotive, getting competitiors general benchmarks is not so hard. The customers offer it up rather easily. That is why those companies have better performance numbers tahn many others.