No More Observations? Findings vs. Observations

Sidney Vianna

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Another aspect to address: When is an "opportunity for improvement" an outright opinion, and are such opinions relevant?
I know that there are many different opinions on auditors reporting OFI's, but, in my experience, for management system audits to add real value to the organizations, it is imperative that such audits go beyond the mere exercise of verification for conformance and/or compliance. Most processes and practices are not binary; i.e., either good or bad. They occupy the whole spectrum from mediocre to excellent.

As a management system auditor involved with very large, multi-site organizations, one of my attention areas was to identify possible "best-in-class" practice among the sites for critical processes. And to report such identified best practice to the corporate people for further evaluation and, potentially, disseminating the practice to all of the remaining sites. Corporate people truly appreciated that type of noteworthy finding which could mean significant savings and/or process robustness.

It should go without saying that such reporting does NOT violate any aspect of third party auditing.
 

tony s

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Is this a good picture of the correct terms and does anyone have any suggestions or adds to make it more complete/correct

By using the definitions of ISO 19011:2011 and ISO 9000:2015:

Audit Findings - results of the evaluation of the collected audit evidence against audit criteria
Note 1: Audit findings can indicate either conformity or nonconformity
Note 2: Audit findings can lead to the identification of opportunities for improvement or recording good practices

And by using this definition for OFI:
Opportunity for Improvement - is a situation where the evidence presented indicates a requirement has been effectively implemented, but based on auditor experience and knowledge, additional effectiveness or robustness might be possible with a modified approach.

Attached is my view of an audit finding.
 

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John Broomfield

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John Broomfield: Here are the two slides I have that I use to cover the OFIs FYI.

AndyN: This particular group I am teaching is mainly concerned with their internal audit program, although I do address external audits as part of the basics.

Regards,
leaning

leaning,

Keep the audit client in control of their audit by saying if the audit is to include OFIs then document this as part of the audit’s objective so:

A. This fact can be pre-approved or not by the audit client;

B. The lead auditor can bring the necessary competence onto the audit team;

C. The records show the extent to which the system depends on its auditors for its improvement.

John
 

AndyN

Moved On
John Broomfield: Here are the two slides I have that I use to cover the OFIs FYI.

AndyN: This particular group I am teaching is mainly concerned with their internal audit program, although I do address external audits as part of the basics.

Regards,
leaning

From the content of the slides(?) it looks like you're using the external audit as the model you're teaching. You might want to revisit that. (BTW, if I may, looking from an instructional design point of view there's waaay too much information on those slides. Training shouldn't be "death by powerpoint".)
 

leaning

Involved In Discussions
I'm still going through my notes, but I found these words from this page:ISO Audit Results and Nonconformities | What they mean

Praises or noteworthy efforts: These are areas that were observed during the audit and that are seen as excellent examples of implementation of the requirements of the standard. Noteworthy efforts are also given when the practices are seen as best in class. They could also be issued when the company has shown significant improvement in certain areas from prior audits. Noteworthy efforts do not require any action. When provided in the audit report, it is done for reporting purposes only and to show to the organization areas where they can feel proud of.

It's from 2009 and she has "observations" on her list as well as using the term "non-conformances" and "NCN" vice "nonconformities", but based on this, there would be three categories of findings (and I need to re-do my diagram):

1) praises/noteworthy efforts
2) OFI
3) nonconformities

Anyone have any history or which resource addresses "praises/noteworthy efforts"?

(And I appreciate the comments about the PowerPoints themselves. The auditorium board this is going on is bigger than most people's houses, and the client has specific requests that the PowerPoints themselves be loaded as much as I can (12pt is their norm(!)) without using notes or separate handouts. They're the boss. (Not related to my question, but I wanted to address that it'll be alright.))
 

leaning

Involved In Discussions
And AndyN, you're right about the model. I find the logistics of an external audit team with getting everything together from scratch, meeting with the client, doing the fieldwork, and then doing the closing meeting and follow-ups before close-out is a lot more stuff than is done by the internal audit group. So I teach the macro-process (external) and then go in to the internal (micro). The format works for me. but yep, it's an external model with an internal sub-model...ish.. Between the speaking, quizzes, profiles, videos, memes, discussions, activities, games, etc., it makes it so I have plenty of material.
 

John Broomfield

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Super Moderator
ISO 19011:2011 call them "good practices" (See Note 2 of Section 3.4).

Tony,

Thanks for the reminder.

Praiseworthy may be seen as condescending.

Praiseworthy may portray auditors as experts in what the auditee does.

Reports of good practice (with supporting evidence) would still be audit findings and may add balance to the audit report.

Best wishes,

John
 

leaning

Involved In Discussions
I looked beyond Section 3.4 for a definition of "good practice", but couldn't find anything in 19011:2011

6.4.7 does say that conformities and good practices need supporting evidence.

ISO 9000:2005 Sect 3.9.5 has the same words as ISO 19011:2011 Sect 3.4, except the "good practice" words are missing, and the note about the terms "compliance" and "non-compliance".

I re-did my picture. This is definitely better, so thanks, all! :)
 

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