No Nonconformances issued from audit activity

#11
This type of situation is possibly caused through the auditor not doing a complete job of auditing! We haven't found out, yet, if what the people are doing is causing any problems or not, regardless of what the procedure says.

I'm always concerned when I read the audit was against 'the standard'. This isn't good criteria for an internal auditor to use. It should be they're auditing the qms documentation. Furthermore, if the auditor had determined that there is resistance to the procedure, then maybe it's because of the way it's written or introduced to people. We can't tell from what's reported.

The auditor should be reporting the facts - not 'grading' findings to ameliorate the situation. Call it like it is (as Brad says) - this is one of the downsides of 'allowing' auditors to 'grade' findings! It shouldn't be there call. The 'grade' comes from the nature of what's reported!

I agree with Jen, that 'retraining' isn't likely to be worthwhile. What are you going to 'retain' on - the same behaviours? I think the way you select criteria and scope may be part of it, plus the amount of planning and how that's done needs scrutiny. Just arming the auditor with the standard etc. is not going to work!

Did anyone ever coach this auditor to know how to audit? Just being in a training class isn't sufficient to get an effective audit.
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#12
In the first audit (1st visit), which mainly documental auditing, the auditor will not write any nonconformance. He will only write the situation founded without the word nonconformance.
In the 2nd visit (normally 2 weeks after the first visit), it’s a normal audit.
That is what ISO 17021:2006 prescribes for Stage 1 and Stage 2 audits.
 
S

Sandra Gauvin

#13
I agree with Brad. :agree1:
Instead, it seems there is a cultural force that they hesitate to press against. A retraining could do more damage than good, if they feel they are being somehow punished for something not in their control. :whip:
:2cents:
Good point about the cultural force....Sandra
 

Antonio Vieira

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#14
That is what ISO 17021:2006 prescribes for Stage 1 and Stage 2 audits.

Yes Sidney, in fact that’s what registrars now have to do.
In the case of one Organization that is to be audited having a poor QMS, this new procedure might be good.
On the other hand for an Organization that has a great QMS this is no more that a total waste of time.
I faced this situation last week, on the first stage audit there were no notes. On the second stage audit, the auditor has nothing more to see…
:notme:
 

Sidney Vianna

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#15
I faced this situation last week, on the first stage audit there were no notes. On the second stage audit, the auditor has nothing more to see…
It seems that the auditor does not know what s/he is doing.

Not sure what you mean by "no notes". A documented report from Stage 1 audit is a requirement.
 
S

selena15

#16
Hi cove
i'm agree with you Brad and this is why i notified this issue here. for to be more a clear the problem is that the procedure is correct and approved by management but as Jennifer said " Instead, it seems there is a cultural force that they hesitate to press against." and honestly this idea that the cultural force is enough tough that it make audits or any others component which can have an effect on the Quality Management
system is frustring me :mad:. and here i will ask you to read, if it isn't already done, one very exciting thread that i issued before called "corporate culture" and i wish if Wes can reply here :cool:

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=30493

Inderstang me, if you are aware that there is any kind of resistance and you accept to let some procedure or some of their manner in order to be gentle and permit to, indeed, this culture to stay confort, what will be the gain of to established one QMS and use some components whitout to benefit of their result, what we will win? :confused:

"A retraining could do more damage than good, if they feel they are being somehow punished for something not in their control. " I didn't htink about this possibility !!! when i approuve the suggestion of retrainning, it was just in the idea to correct some manner ..etc. But you are right to suggest that others have to be retrained.

ISO 17021:2006 is relating to the certification and the first stage before the certification, does its guidelines is working for an internal audit?!
"Did anyone ever coach this auditor to know how to audit? Just being in a training class isn't sufficient to get an effective audit." good point Andyn, the trainning was done internally and as i know no coach. You know how it is the trainning in general, read together the standard
 
#17
Selena:

It's so good to see you come here with problems and see how our advice is helping you! It's very gratifying to know we help, even so far away...

Your comment is very interesting. I have made similar comments when talking about ISO/IEC 17021 that the 2 phase approach could be used to such advantage in an internal audit situation.

Why can't internal auditors spend time with the management of the process they are to audit, to check for 'readiness', understanding of the scope, criteria etc? It would certainly help to ensure a much more successful outcome than we get today!

Try it - you might like it!
 
J

JaneB

#18
the trainning was done internally and as i know no coach. You know how it is the trainning in general, read together the standard
The outcome required of any effective training isn't just that the people were simply 'trained', it's that they are assessed as competent.

If I have understood what you said correctly, it seems to say that the training consisted of reading the Standard together. Just doing that that really isn't enough for effective training, nor for your auditors acquiring real competency. And 'retraining' them the same way? :nope: Won't work.

It sounds like there may be issues on both sides of the equation...
 
S

selena15

#19
Good morning Cove

you are welcome AndyN, i will tell you , of course the Cove is master in sharing and learning and also sometimes, i start a thread just to inform about some behave; discrepancy ...because i know that many Folks here are member in the revision or whatever organizations of the standards and this is my manner to notify, if usefull, about this facts even from so far, in order to contribute :)

About the approach of ISO 17021, my inderstanding of that is when we ask for a certification, The QMS is enough implemented and we know that the comments issued from the first step is important to be fixed and it is enough to be commited to it.
Now concerning the internal audit, as you said your self, this is component to be used effectively in order to get the best outcome, this is why i asked if is allowed to use the 17021 approach.

Why can't internal auditors spend time with the management of the process they are to audit, to check for 'readiness', understanding of the scope, criteria etc? It would certainly help to ensure a much more successful outcome than we get today! Jane This method is used as usual as possible and also the Quality manager try to be involved in the meetings of departement , sites to remember them again and again what should be done; the outcome is " yes ,yes you are right, i'm agree with you and so" after no feedback :confused:

But you are right to spend time and time on these.

I think that the commitment of the Top mangt have lot to do here. I'm not saying that there is no documented and communicated commitment or so;
I will tell, the Quality objectives is included in the descriptif poste of folks, but the deal is , what does this realy mean? during the annual evaluation; the question is : the manager of each will focuse on the responsability relating to the function and the quality ones separatly and with different level of focusing or it will be mixed and revaluated as one set ? i don't know if i explained enough or correctly my opinion

"If I have understood what you said correctly, it seems to say that the training consisted of reading the Standard together. Just doing that that really isn't enough for effective training, nor for your auditors acquiring real competency. And 'retraining' them the same way?" yes, this is kind of reading an audit; answering to the questions and also somme training audits; but as i read in one thread here; what about coaching and assisting a person until to feel her competent.
Let focuse on this point; after trainning and one obeservation audit; you can participate in audit and after 3 , you can be a responsible, but what about what product "these training audits" as Additional value. i mean more than following up the requirement of ISO 19011
.for example; if i get a participation in one audit , which is so classical , if i can use this word. No special situation will occur which can let me see what to do ( as instance: auditing an activity which don't have a documentation; get some :mad: behavors....etc) i'm sure that you can remember some situations which was not linear. I4m aware about this, what about the novice on this activity?
You are right to say that the retraining won't work in these case.
:agree1:
 
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Antonio Vieira

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#20
It seems that the auditor does not know what s/he is doing.

Not sure what you mean by "no notes". A documented report from Stage 1 audit is a requirement.
Of course there was a report on the stage 1 audit. What I meant with “no notes” was that as on the stage 1 the auditor can’t write nonconformances (just “notes”),
The QMS I was talking about, although new, was almost perfect.
So, to audit it twice (1st stage and 2nd stage) was a complete waste of time.
In fact, knowing that this was going to happen, we asked the Registrar that the two stages were made on continuous days, but unfortunately the auditor’s schedule didn’t allow it…
 
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