No Nonconformances issued from audit activity

#21
The QMS I was talking about, although new, was almost perfect.
So, to audit it twice (1st stage and 2nd stage) was a complete waste of time.
In fact, knowing that this was going to happen, we asked the Registrar that the two stages were made on continuous days, but unfortunately the auditor’s schedule didn’t allow it…
Antonio:

You're looking at it from a different point of view than that of the CB auditor. They didn't know 'its perfect' (hard to believe, frankly) before the visit. The auditor is not auditing the system twice, by doing a two stage audit! The first stage is a planning and preparation activity, a 'readiness' review. Did you know that's the purpose? Who was it a waste of time for? Just reading a manual and procedures (remotely) before hand was never an effective way to prepare for a CB audit. The auditor is supposed to evaluate other issues before the stage 2, which can really only be done on site.

There is a 'Heads Up' advisory to CB's in the USA about why they shouldn't be doing 'back to back' stages like you wanted. It might not have been just his schedule!
 
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Jen Kirley

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#22
At the core of the issue is the lack of buy-in of the procedure.

When doing an audit, if a discrepancy is found between the procedure and what's actually being done, the discrepancy needs to be somehow noted. All that does is point out there is a disconnect. No one is getting slapped, no one should be sent to the guillotine. It's just someone noticing things are not being done the way the document says. Auditors need to be empowered to perform this very simple, and crucial service. If they are not, the entire audit program could lose credibility... maybe the QMS also.

Once that a discrepancy is acknowledged - and it should be very easy to agree on this basic fact of QMS life - the question becomes one of what to do to align the process document and what is actually going on.

If the document is unclear, is unrealistic, is too strict, or offers no flexibility where some could be allowed, it's possible the document could be changed to match what is really going on.

If, however, activities are being allowed or promoted that do not conform to either the process document, customer requirements or the standard the QMS is built upon, the problem is different, and arguably more serious than an auditor not writing a nonconformity. Section 5 in the standard addresses responsibilities.

Does your audit process say all nonconformances will be addressed as such when found in an audit? If it does, now that you have noticed this issue you should assign a CAR to your own audit process.

As part of the containment action to resolve your own nonconformance, if the previously unassigned nonconformances are important you can issue them and pursue the problem of the process buy-in at that point. If the first level responsible person does not agree with the nonconformance, then the next higher up shold be drawninto the conversation. And so on.

In this way the onus is removed from the auditor - the issue of pressure has been "elevated" to management (you).

As a long term fix, you would need to ask yourself a series of hard questions.

1) Does the auditor have support of the auditee?
2) If so, is the auditor suitable for the work?
3) If so, what kind of remediation is needed?

If #1 is No, then questions #2 and #3 are moot for this immediate issue; the main issue is not clearly one of auditor behavior. Address #1 and then ask the series of questions again.

Understand that performing successful audits requires the ability to perform successful Crucial Confrontations. (I am not affiliated with the makers, VitalSmarts) It can take some time for a diplomatic person to develop this ability and the confidence to use it, if he or she ever can.

I have a paper titled When Employees Don't Follow Procedures here.

I hope this helps!
 
S

selena15

#23
Thank you
My lady for this wonderful post.
Just FYI, as requested, the audit procedure is correct as you described
I will surely read the docments attached
:thanx:
 

Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#25
Antonio:

You're looking at it from a different point of view than that of the CB auditor. They didn't know 'its perfect' (hard to believe, frankly) before the visit.
.../...
In some Organizations this 1st stage and 2nd stage method is a total waste of time!
The trouble here is that people generally consider that the registrar is almost God in the knowledge of the standard requirements and implementation.
That is not true!
There are people working in some Organizations that know much more about the standard and the function of a QMS than any person in any registrar!
For example we’ve been working (full time) with ISO 9001 since 87, is it not expected that we are able to implement an almost perfect QMS?
 
J

JaneB

#26
:topic:

Re: Stage 1 and stage 2 audits (really ought to be a separate thread!)

Gentlemen, I think both of you make some excellent points. While I agree with Sidney (and the ANAB guidance) that in general, and in most cases, the stage 1 and 2 should not be 'back to back' and should have a reasonable amount of time elapse between them, I think António has some valid points.

I think there can be a case for this to occur, but only on very, very, very (did I say very?) rare occasions.
But the ANAB (and other countries') guidance specifically allows for these occasional exceptions, provided that the client is clearly informed of the attendant risk, and presumably clearly informed by the certifier that it is neither their recommended nor their preferred mode.

Bottom line, if António is strongly convinced in a particular case that he/they are better informed than the certifier, and everyone communicates clearly - I think he has a right to go ahead.

That it's 'often' or 'frequently' a waste of time to have stage 1 and stage 2 time-separated, I strongly disagree with.I cannot think of an occasion where I would advise a client to do it, in fact, quite the opposite. I invariably advise and make sure clients do have a reasonable gap between - and that's even when I'm confident (based on very solid experience and many, many certifications) that this one will also succeed.
 
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