Non-Conformance due to obsolete ISO/TS 16949 audit checklist

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#11
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

The QSA book you have available was never intended to be used for ISO TS.

It was released besides QS9000 and to be used for QS9000 environments.
Indeed the QSA lives as long as QS9000 lives.

For ISO TS ( based on the process approach of ISO 9001 version 2000 ) this QSA should have never been used. Look at my previous post # 10.
For ISO TS you have to use the process approach (instead of the item approach like in the QSA )

Best regards,

Antoine

Antoine,

Okay, I get that the Checklist (Yes/No) does not reflect a Process Approach to auditing, but how can you say that the QSA for ISO/TS-16949 was never meant to be used for TS? Are you saying like Howard, that the checklist was only a companion document to be used with the Rules for TS Registration Scheme?

Am I getting it now - Guys?

Thanks,
Doug
 
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Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#12
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

Just read Annex 7, Main Changes from the Rules 1st edition dated March 19, 2002, in the 2nd edition of Automotive Certification Scheme for ISO/TS 16949:2002 Rules for achieving IATF recognition. Under 2.7 CB checklist it states "Deleted: NO more reference to any checklist." Presuming, since I do not have 1st Edition, that might be my only evidence of the QSA being obsoleted.

Thanks,
Doug
 
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Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#13
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

Howard,

The system I am currently working with (a little over a month now) received the following NC in a Periodic Audit performed in July 2006:

"The procedure for internal audits refers to a document of external origin that is an obsolete document. Section 3.2 refers to the Quality System Assessment Checklist for ISO/TS 16949 as a basis for internal audits. Note that this checklist was not used during the most recent audit."

The NC was identified as a 'Control of Documents' (4.2.3) finding.

Thanks,

Doug
I would dissagree with the NC for the following reasons:
Your procedure is entitled to refer to any document it wants, as long as you did not say the current edition there is no NC for document control .

There is a non conformance that you did not use it and also a non conformance for not using the process approach for auditing.
No matter what the procedure needs to be changed.

Keep us informed as to what you decide to do.
 
P

potdar

#14
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

There seems to be a big confusion here friends.

1. The QSA applicable to QS-9000 (Item / clause based) and the QSA checklist for ISO/ TS 16949:2002 (process based) published in 2002 are two different documents. Lets not mix up the two. The TS 16949 QSA was developed specifically for TS16949. It was never mandatory, only a guide document.

2. Lets forget about the Rules. The rules are meant for certification auditors. Internal auditors work differently, as per their procedures. For internal auditors, TS 16949 clause 8.2.2.4 Note says "Specific checklists should be used for each audit". So, if TS16949 QSA is defined as the specific reference checklist, no issues.

3. It would be an issue if the document has ceased to exist. But there seems to be no such declaration from IATF. In such a case, as declared in the initial edition, the document will be valid for the life of TS 16949:2002. It will be simpler though, if your procedure refers to QSA 2002 edition instead of just QSA. I would disagree with Howard here. If I dont specify any edition, it by default means the current edition.

4. No defence for not using the checklist during last audit. It is an NC.

5. Finally, I always maintain - Dispute an NC if you don't agree. It is not an NC till you sign your acceptance on it.
 
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Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#15
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

There seems to be a big confusion here friends.

1. The QSA applicable to QS (Item / clause based) and the QSA checklist for ISO/ TS 16949:2002 (process based) published in 2002 are two different documents. Lets not mix up the two. The TS QSA was developed specifically for TS. It was never mandatory, only a guide document.

2. Lets forget about the Rules. The rules are meant for certification auditors. Internal auditors work differently, as per their procedures. For internal auditors, TS 8.2.2.4 Note says "Specific checklists should be used for each audit". So, if TS QSA is defined as the specific reference checklist, no issues.

3. It would be an issue if the document has ceased to exist. But there seems to be no such declaration from IATF. In such a case, as declared in the initial edition, the document will be valid for the life of TS 16949:2002. It will be simpler though, if your procedure refers to QSA 2002 edition instead of just QSA. I would disagree with Howard here. If I dont specify any edition, it by default means the current edition.

4. No defence for not using the checklist during last audit. It is an NC.

5. Finally, I always maintain - Dispute an NC if you don't agree. It is not an NC till you sign your acceptance on it.
Potdar,

I did not have confusion with Antione and Howard trying to explain that the QSA Checklist for ISO/TS-16949:2002 was different from the QSA Checklist for QS-9000. Having been out of automotive since 2001 I did not know the difference. So Howard and Antione have helped me understand the difference and you have confirmed it too.

Your second point is well stated, but given your position in point 3 (which I agree with), then my procedure is outdated. If I were to continue using the QSA for TS, then I would just make some modifications to it and make it an internal document and not keep the external document.

I do not know all the reasons for not using the checklist for the round of audits before the registrar's Periodic Audit in July. I came into the picture in August, so I am not arguing against the NC. I am just trying to understand how and when the QSA Checklist was obsoleted, so I can better determine the cause for having an Obsoleted document in the QMS.

I appreciate that you confirm what I have concluded: that with the statement in the Forward of the QSA Checklist ...being valid for the life of the standard...and the IATF apparently not having a system to indicate that the document is obsolete...that indeed the external document is not obsolete.

Thanks,
Doug
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#16
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

3. It would be an issue if the document has ceased to exist. But there seems to be no such declaration from IATF. In such a case, as declared in the initial edition, the document will be valid for the life of TS 16949:2002. It will be simpler though, if your procedure refers to QSA 2002 edition instead of just QSA. I would disagree with Howard here. If I dont specify any edition, it by default means the current edition.
Potdar,
Please can you explain why this is correct

Thanks
 
Q

QualityPhD

#17
Re: Non-Conformance due to obsolete ISO/TS 16949 checklist

FYI Auditors...

Under the sanctioned interpretations, SI 2 04 Use of the Checklist to ISO/TS 16949:2002 (Revised, adopted May 2004)


The "Checklist to ISO/TS 16949:2002" is obsolete as an IATF document, effective 1 June 2004. It is no longer available.
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#18
Re: Non-Conformance due to obsolete ISO/TS 16949 checklist

FYI Auditors...

Under the sanctioned interpretations, SI 2 04 Use of the Checklist to ISO/TS 16949:2002 (Revised, adopted May 2004)


The "Checklist to ISO/TS 16949:2002" is obsolete as an IATF document, effective 1 June 2004. It is no longer available.
QualityPhD,

Thanks! That is what I've been wanting to know. That blows my previous conclusion, but Oh Well! I wonder if any specifications and standards organization will ever again state in the forward ... 'it is effective for the life of this standard?'

Appreciative,
Doug
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#19
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

There seems to be a big confusion here friends.

1. The QSA applicable to QS (Item / clause based) and the QSA checklist for ISO/ TS 16949:2002 (process based) published in 2002 are two different documents. Lets not mix up the two. The TS QSA was developed specifically for TS. It was never mandatory, only a guide document.

2. Lets forget about the Rules. The rules are meant for certification auditors. Internal auditors work differently, as per their procedures. For internal auditors, TS 8.2.2.4 Note says "Specific checklists should be used for each audit". So, if TS QSA is defined as the specific reference checklist, no issues.

3. It would be an issue if the document has ceased to exist. But there seems to be no such declaration from IATF. In such a case, as declared in the initial edition, the document will be valid for the life of TS 16949:2002. It will be simpler though, if your procedure refers to QSA 2002 edition instead of just QSA. I would disagree with Howard here. If I dont specify any edition, it by default means the current edition.

4. No defence for not using the checklist during last audit. It is an NC.

5. Finally, I always maintain - Dispute an NC if you don't agree. It is not an NC till you sign your acceptance on it.

Let's correct a couple ideas here. The standard says "specific checklists shuld be used" in a note in 8.2.2.4. At the time that was written, the QSA was still relevant. Many of us argued a QSA style point-by-point clause based checklist did not make sense in a "process approach" paradigm. The QSA was on useful as a gap analysis, if you wanted to verify your system addressed everything. Internal and external audits are both expected to follow a process approach method. That is why they finally obsoleted the QSA.

Even though it is obsolete, you are still allowed to own it and use it, if you find value in it (as a gap analysis doc review, for example). However, it may not be used as the basis for your internal audits, because the Rules say internal audits must also be conducted in a process approach method.

Checklists can be designed to make process-based auditing easier for internal auditors. They just are not permitted to be clause based checklists. Many clients use some form of checklist. Most tend to be cheatsheet type formats.
 
P

potdar

#20
Re: TS16949 & QS-9000 Gap Analysis

Thanks to QualityPhD for solving the root query. the checklist is obsolete. Whatever be the reasons. Let me say something in its defence, it was formulated to enable auditing on the process based approach. The whole exercise was based on Customer Owned Processes (COP) as envisaged by ISO 9001:2000.

Point 2: A repeat. The Rules, QSA checklist, SI are meant for external auditors. Internal auditors will go by the TS, and more specifically the QMS. In Doug's case both the TS and the QMS want his auditors to use the checklist. Maybe, as he says, he should just adopt the checklist as an internal document.

Now why does TS still advise use of checklist while SI advises against it? Maybe IATF should explain.

Point 3. Howard's query. If I talk of being certified to ISO 9001 on 14th Dec 2000, I am talking about ISO 9001:1994. Same words on 15th Dec 2000, I am talking in thin air. Two ISO 9001 standards exist. I better specify the edition.

Some of us in this discussion have talked of TS, some of TS 16949, Some about ISO/TS 16949.. everybody takes it to mean ISO/TS 16949:2002. Nobody even thinks of ISO/TS 16949:1999. I think that clarifies my point.
 
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