Definition Nonconformance - How is this Top Management Definition of Nonconformances?

Is this top management definition of nonconformance ...

  • Pure genius, why didn't I think of that

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • Seems fine to me

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sketchy, but OK if the auditor has agreed

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Not really right, even if the auditor lets it slide

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Laughable, misses the fundamental point

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
R

rdd007

#1
I'm in a new job, and the ISO audit is coming up next month. I've got to get your input on this item, because it's very important to us ...

Top management has told me that "in our quality system we have defined nonconformances as nonconforming parts found at final inspection or the customer, that way we only have to track and provide corrective actions on nonconformances that are discovered at final inspection, not at the work station." There are a few boxes or racks of parts that are scrap or rework at the workstations, and those are just thrown out or reworked when the operator or supervisor gets to it. They aren't tagged, except when an auditor is around ...

So, I created a poll to get your educated opinons :) Tell me what you think.

Thanks.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
G

Greg B

#2
Re: How is this Definition of Nonconformances?

If that statement works for YOUR company then USE IT! but I personaly don't agree with it. This is the definition that I use:

NON CONFORMANCE
"To meet our customers’ needs and expectations, 'Our companys' products must conform to agreed requirements that include chemical, physical and sizing specifications, as well as packaging and delivery specifications."

A NON CONFORMANCE is caused when:
  • Product does not meet Specifications,
  • Product/Packaging/Delivery/Qty etc does not meet the order, and/or,
  • A process is not adhered to as laid down in the Quality, Safety, Environment, Human Resources or Administration Systems.
This is word for word from our training package. We tell them why we need to avert a NC and what a NC is. We then go on to explain how we can prevent a NC

How can we prevent Non -Conformance & Contamination?
  • Be Vigilant,
  • Follow, Review and Update Work Instructions,
  • Check Documentation for errors,
  • Husbandry – Clean as you go,
  • Identify Change (Process),
  • Training,
  • If in Doubt ASK!
Finally we tell them what the ramifications can be:

What are the Ramifications of a Non Conformance &/Or Contamination?
  • Increased Costs,
  • Disgruntled Customers,
  • Loss of Sales/Revenue,
  • Discipline,
  • Rework, Rehandle, Retest, and
  • Investigate (CAR Raised).
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: How is this Definition of Nonconformances?

This is obviously an attempt to create a loophole and limit the scope of nonconformities in the system, but you can NOT disregard the definition of nonconformity contained in ISO 9000:2000 or ISO 9000:2005. ISO 9000 is a NORMATIVE reference in ISO 9001. Thus, your organization can NOT define nonconformity in a way that violates what is supposed to be.

If you start that path, then you create your own definition of quality, corrective action, etc... a slippery slope with no end.
 
G

Greg B

#4
Re: How is this Definition of Nonconformances?

This is obviously an attempt to create a loophole and limit the scope of nonconformities in the system, but you can NOT disregard the definition of nonconformity contained in ISO 9000:2000 or ISO 9000:2005. ISO 9000 is a NORMATIVE reference in ISO 9001. Thus, your organization can NOT define nonconformity in a way that violates what is supposed to be..
Sorry Sydney...but are you implying that I am creating a loophole in the system by defining what is a NC? The standard does not tell us what a NC is in 8.3 (9000:2000 or 9004:2000) but rather tells us how to control them, record them etc. I think everyone MUST decide what a NC is within their organization otherwise they cannot be reported correctly because each person may have a different opinion of what is or is not conforming.
If you start that path, then you create your own definition of quality, corrective action, etc... a slippery slope with no end.
I think everyone MUST define these things themselves. Each company is different and the definitions in the standard are sometimes rather broad, bland and open to confusion (hence the need for this forum). I use the standard a s guide not as a defining document. Everyone knows I hate the standard, with a passion, but that is another issue. I still adopt it but I am not ruled by it.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: How is this Definition of Nonconformances?

Sorry Sydney...but are you implying that I am creating a loophole in the system by defining what is a NC? The standard does not tell us what a NC is in 8.3 (9000:2000 or 9004:2000) but rather tells us how to control them, record them etc. I think everyone MUST decide what a NC is within their organization otherwise they cannot be reported correctly because each person may have a different opinion of what is or is not conforming.
I think everyone MUST define these things themselves. Each company is different and the definitions in the standard are sometimes rather broad, bland and open to confusion (hence the need for this forum). I use the standard a s guide not as a defining document. Everyone knows I hate the standard, with a passion, but that is another issue. I still adopt it but I am not ruled by it.
Greg, my previous post was a response to the OP. I believe that this thread has been moved from the ISO 9001 forum to the definitions, acronyms...forum. When I responded, it was within the context of complying with ISO 9001. If you are invoking compliance with ISO 9001, the definitions contained in ISO 9000 SHALL be followed. Period. No playing games with definitions. If this question was not in the context of ISO 9001, then disregard my post.

PS. If this thread has been moved, whomever did it should have alerted to the fact.
 
G

Greg B

#6
Re: How is this Definition of Nonconformances?

Greg, my previous post was a response to the OP. I believe that this thread has been moved from the ISO 9001 forum to the definitions, acronyms...forum. When I responded, it was within the context of complying with ISO 9001. If you are invoking compliance with ISO 9001, the definitions contained in ISO 9000 SHALL be followed. Period. No playing games with definitions. If this question was not in the context of ISO 9001, then disregard my post.
Sidney, My point is that the OP is trying to write a DEFINITION for their system...NOT espouse that laid down by the standard on how to CONTROL a Non-conformance. The standard is a guideline and any company that tried to follow it ‘literally’ would be kidding themselves because it doesn’t (and can’t) tell you what an Non-Conformance IS!! I really think you and I are talking about two very different things.:confused:
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
My definition of nonconforming, in my opinion, is simple:

Any product or service that does not meet the applicable drawings, specifications, customer expectations, contract/purchasing documents, or regulated authorities is considered nonconforming, be it returned from the customer or found during any of the processes.
 
#8
Welcome to the Cove rdd007 :bigwave:
in our quality system we have defined nonconformances as nonconforming parts found at final inspection or the customer, that way we only have to track and provide corrective actions on nonconformances that are discovered at final inspection, not at the work station."
So, acc. to the definition nothing can go wrong until the product reaches final inspection? That sounds rather wasteful: Not dealing with a problem until so late in the chain.

/Claes
 
C

chergh - 2008

#9
the ISO audit is coming up next month. I've got to get your input on this item, because it's very important to us ...
Are you truly serious with this post??? From what you have written it's quite clear the only thing that is important to your management is the bit of paper on the wall. your remarks about things not being tagged unless an auditor is about also seems to indicate this.

The definition is terrible IMO and seems to have been defined in such a way to keep time spent on corrective actions to a minimum.

Non-conformances raised on internal process items are not a negative thing they can and should be seen as an opportunity to make needed improvements to a system.

5 minutes later...

This sort of statement also leads to rash judgement, as can be seen from my rant above, from reading your companies definition I jumped straight to the conclusion that I would not want to do business with your company as I believe it has have poor management and no real commitment to improvement or running a "real" QMS.
 
D

Dean Frederickson

#10
I agree with Chergh, it sounds like this is a buisness that spends more time trying to cover up nonconformances than working at fixing the root cause problems, which imho creates more costs than savings.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
N Nadcap AC7101/2 Rev. E Section 3.2 - Nonconformance AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 2
M ISO 9001 Major Nonconformance Internal Audit Schedule/COVID-19 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
T Internal Nonconformance procedure thoughts (AS9100) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
C NCR (Nonconformance System) Software Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
L How to deal with an ISO 13485 Supplier Audit nonconformance ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 17
E When to generate a nonconformance report ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
K Counterfeit parts prevention - Audit Nonconformance - AS9100 8.2.2 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 25
qualprod When to write up a nonconformance and require a NCR - We produce labels ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
PhilM Nonconformance report, Customer complaint investigations and RMAs ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
M Medical Device Directive - Seeking common nonconformance write up scenarios CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 2
CPhelan Nonconformance opened as incorrect expiration date placed on received product. Escalate to CAPA? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 4
qualprod Ineffective follow up of people performance - Audit Nonconformance ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
Q AS9120 7.5.3.2 Control of Documented Information - Audit Nonconformance AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 20
qualprod Criteria to raise a Nonconformance based on KPI values ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 39
L AS9100 D- Handling Nonconformance Documentation for an organization that outsources most of the work. AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
G Timing allowed by IATF to close a Remote Site Minor Nonconformance IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
R Visually impacting graphics for Nonconformance status metrics for Management Report Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
J ISO 13485 Audit Nonconformance written against 6.3 Infrastructure ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 25
PastorBee13 IATF 16949 Audit Nonconformance Responses per 5.1.1.2 - Format IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
A What ISO 9001:2015 clause could be used to write nonconformance for not updating licensed driver list? General Auditing Discussions 8
S Nonconformance to a Note in ISO13485 clause 6.2 Human Resources Effectiveness ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 13
A API Spec Q1 9th Edition - 12 month Internal Audit Schedule Audit Nonconformance Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 10
A Where are the rules for when a repeat minor nonconformance becomes a major? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 36
R ISO 9001:2015 9.3 - Required inputs to the management review - Audit Nonconformance Manufacturing and Related Processes 14
K Which clause would best fit this Nonconformance? (Supplier Related) Internal Auditing 2
W Minor Audit Nonconformance Against Determining the scope of QMS IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
J IATF 16949 registration - Major Nonconformance Finding IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
Ajit Basrur Are inputs to the nonconformance process required to be identified? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 21
N Responding to NADCAP nonconformance - Control of External Documents AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
P Examples of Nonconformance, Corrective Action Requests, and Root Cause Analysis Nonconformance and Corrective Action 2
qualprod Should I initiate CAPA for a nonconformance not recorded? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 25
K Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes (IATF 16949) Internal Auditing 14
J Audit opportunity for improvement raised to nonconformance months after the audit General Auditing Discussions 7
GStough Pushback on a Nonconformance Found in a Supplier Audit General Auditing Discussions 22
K NCR or CA? We're taking any issue we have and saying its a nonconformance Nonconformance and Corrective Action 11
GStough Nonconformance Found Outside the Audit Scope - Supplier Audit General Auditing Discussions 16
R Closing out an API/ISO QMS Audit Nonconformance - Magnetic Particle Examination Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
Q Nonconformance Raw Material Treatment in ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
C Recurring Nonconformance - Missing Deadline for Closing a Corrective Action Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 14
N Laboratory Audit Nonconformance - Maintenance of Standards ISO 17025 related Discussions 10
K Internal Auditing a previous Nonconformance? Internal Auditing 19
D Interpretation of new IAQG ruling - Audit duration for nonconformance verification AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 7
Q Customer Complaint Vs. Nonconformance - CAPA SYSTEM Customer Complaints 2
D Nonconformance on document control - Unapproved document on production server Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 4
P Ratio of Supplier with a nonconformance vs. Supplier without a nonconfomance Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 10
W Nonconformance Recurrence Response Help General Auditing Discussions 4
dubrizo If Quality Objectives are not known to employees, is it a Nonconformance? General Auditing Discussions 7
xfngrs Automotive Industry Nonconformance Database wanted - Preferably SharePoint based Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 5
Gman2 Processes sharing the same nonconformance during an audit General Auditing Discussions 13
T Audit Nonconformance - ISO 9001:2008 Clause 6.2.2 - Competencies ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 20

Similar threads

Top Bottom