Definition Nonconformance - How is this Top Management Definition of Nonconformances?

Is this top management definition of nonconformance ...

  • Pure genius, why didn't I think of that

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • Seems fine to me

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sketchy, but OK if the auditor has agreed

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Not really right, even if the auditor lets it slide

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Laughable, misses the fundamental point

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
R

rdd007

#11
Cherg and all, thanks ... I was starting to doubt my sanity after a few knock down drag out battles about this.

It's an ISO system (which is why I posted there first) ... and to me, the ISO definition of nonconformity is clear ... parts that don't meet requirements. That's wherever they are in the system.

And, to me, it's fundamental to good business sense that we track and address nonconformances with corrective action tools wherever they occur ... and do it in a hands on, low cost, shop floor real kind of way ...

Anyways, I needed the support and encouragement to go after this again ...
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#12
Are you truly serious with this post??? From what you have written it's quite clear the only thing that is important to your management is the bit of paper on the wall.
I'm sure the thread starter is serious. We must remember that many people are faced with management directives that they do not agree with, nor can they personally change. There is also the possibility that the thread starter is not as familiar with 'quality assurance' definitions as many who visit here.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#13
Top management has told me that "in our quality system we have defined nonconformances as nonconforming parts found at final inspection or the customer, that way we only have to track and provide corrective actions on nonconformances that are discovered at final inspection, not at the work station." There are a few boxes or racks of parts that are scrap or rework at the workstations, and those are just thrown out or reworked when the operator or supervisor gets to it. They aren't tagged, except when an auditor is around ...
Wow...I actually stared at this post and re-read goodness knows how many times before feeling calm enough to post. rdd007, first off, please understand that any seemingly harsh posts are not directed to you personally. I think that many of us are in shock at this definition and we sympathize with your situation. I doubt any of us would want to be in your shoes right now. :(

To be honest, I don't believe that this definition will hold much weight with an auditor. I think that you've internally met the requirements for 8.3, although perhaps the auditor could take the route of you providing evidence of concession for the internal customer (i.e., the final inspection station accepting all products from the earlier work station no matter if they have defects).

If the definition of your nonconforming product is accepted by the auditor, I see potential findings elsewhere....

8.4 Analysis of data "....shall provide information relating to...(c) characterisitics and trends of processes and products including opportunities for preventive action..." - Your organization is throwing away defective parts/products without knowing why or for what reason. You may get hit for not tracking the defects.

8.2.4 Monitoring and measuring the product "....verify that product requireemnts have been met.....carried out at appropriate stages of the product realizatio process in accordance with the planned arrangements (see 7.1)." - Of course, we don't know what your planned arrangements are. :cool: But if there is something "hinky" there, the auditor may find some links here for a finding.

For what it's worth, not every "nonconformance" is evaluated by my organization. We have developed a nonconformance guidelines matrix which shows the 'trigger points' for a nonconformance. Depending on which trigger is hit, this will also determine the level of corrective action taken.

If the boxes/parts aren't tagged except when an auditor is around, it does sound as if the "tagging process" isn't working for you. That's okay. Where does it say that tagging must be performed?

7.5.3 Identification and traceability simply requires you to identify the product status. Your boxes could count as this...for example, use visual management to indicate the status of the parts...all parts in red boxes are not to proceed to final inspection, or something to that effect. Of course, from a good business standpoint, you'll want to know why parts have defects. Ties back into 8.4.

Basically, no, I'm not comfortable with how your organization has defined nonconforming product within their processes and I feel that the level of action taken is at a superficial level. However, my comfort level and feelings (and those of the auditor), are not what determine if you receive a nonconformance.

The auditor may accept your organization's definition, but I predict that you'll receive a nonconformance further within the process on how defective products are treated.
 
C

chergh - 2008

#14
I'm sure the thread starter is serious. We must remember that many people are faced with management directives that they do not agree with, nor can they personally change. There is also the possibility that the thread starter is not as familiar with 'quality assurance' definitions as many who visit here.
My first thought on reading the question was that it was a Wikipedia reference-linktroll. Follow up post showed this clearly wasn't the case.

Sorry if my post was a little angry but I'm sure others got a bit worked up after reading the post as well.

To rdd007 good luck with getting your point across to your management team I think you are truly going to need it.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#15
rdd,
welcome. your management is putting you in a bad position, but your instincts seem to be right on. As for things that might help you make your case, if you can get your management to understand how much money they are wasting by not taking the steps to eliminate problems where they occur they may be more likely to understand (and embrace) the intent of the standard. The earlier in the process you find, control, and perform corrective action, the cheaper it is. Not to mention the costs associated with lost business, loss of reputation, etc. from customer dissatisfaction when the product goes out the door. They may need to be reminded that you cannot inspect quality into your product. Good luck.
 
#16
I'm in a new job, and the ISO audit is coming up next month.
I'll assume you're talking about ISO9001:2000? If so, I think you have the ammmunition you need in clause 8.3:

ISO9001:2000 said:

The organization shall ensure that product which does not conform to product requirements is identified and controlled to prevent its unintended use or delivery. The controls and related responsibilities and authorities for dealing with nonconforming product shall be defined in a documented procedure. The organization shall deal with nonconforming product by one or more of the following ways:

a) by taking action to eliminate the detected nonconformity;
b) by authorizing its use, release or acceptance under concession by a relevant authority and, where applicable, by the customer;
c) by taking action to preclude its original intended use or application.

Records of the nature of nonconformities and anys ubsequent actions taken, including concessions obtained, shall be maintained (see 4.2.4).


/Claes​
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#17
I'll assume you're talking about ISO9001:2000? If so, I think you have the ammmunition you need in clause 8.3:
That's my gut feeling, as well, Claes, but I'm trying to find the exact part where rdd's organization fails to meet a requirement. By capturing the nonconforming product at final inspection, they are "preventing unintended use or delivery." By addressing nonconforming product detected by the customer, they are "taking action to eliminate the detected nonconformity" (and the standard technically only requires an organization to meet at least one of the items in a-c). If records are retained, including concessions, they've met the requirements of 8.3 havent' they?

I'm not saying I like the defintion...and I'm certainly not comfortable with it...but if the auditor finds that their definition and process for 8.3 are okay, I believe the finding will be in an element that can be tied into the nonconforming products (8.4, 8.2.4, 7.5.3, etc.).
 
C

chergh - 2008

#18
If you define non-conformances as non conforming parts then surely your internal audit system cannot conform to 8.2.2
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#19
Beyond the fact that there are obvious inspection status issues inherent in the subject "strategy," the actual question being asked is, "Can we design a 'system' solely for the purpose of fooling people?" While it may be possible to get away with it in the near term, the prevarications will inevitably start to proliferate to the point where managing the lies will be much more difficult than just doing the thing right to begin with.

There is a story, perhaps apocryphal, about a friend of W.C. Fields visiting him when he was on his deathbed. Surprised to find Fields in the uncharacteristic position of reading the Bible, he asked Fields what he was doing. "Looking for loopholes," Fields replied.

If you wait until the end, it's probably too late.
 

CarolX

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#20
I'm in a new job, and the ISO audit is coming up next month. I've got to get your input on this item, because it's very important to us ...

Top management has told me that "in our quality system we have defined nonconformances as nonconforming parts found at final inspection or the customer, that way we only have to track and provide corrective actions on nonconformances that are discovered at final inspection, not at the work station." There are a few boxes or racks of parts that are scrap or rework at the workstations, and those are just thrown out or reworked when the operator or supervisor gets to it. They aren't tagged, except when an auditor is around ...

So, I created a poll to get your educated opinons :) Tell me what you think.

Thanks.
Hi rdd007,

Congrats on your first posting. You have been registered here for a while but never posted :thanks: !

Your profile shows you work for a company of about 20 employees - is this still the case? Is this your initial registration audit or a surveliance audit? The situation you describe above could be an item for your continual improvement program.

Many companies get lax until audit time rolls around - then everything is tagged. Your goal might be to find a way to have them identified all the time, not just at audit time.

Try to use this as an oppotunity for improvement.
 
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