Definition Nonconformance - How is this Top Management Definition of Nonconformances?

Is this top management definition of nonconformance ...

  • Pure genius, why didn't I think of that

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • Seems fine to me

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sketchy, but OK if the auditor has agreed

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Not really right, even if the auditor lets it slide

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Laughable, misses the fundamental point

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14
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C

Craig H.

#22
Hi, rdd007

Although answers to your original question may still be debated, I have a question for you:

Why not try to quantify the costs involved in treating internal "bad parts" (or, nonconforming parts, more correctly) in the manner being used, compared to identifying and solving the underlying issues? Repeating the same mistakes over and over again COSTS MONEY!!!!

If you can quantify how much, that cost becomes a virtual 2x4, with which you can knock some sense into certain management types. If you don't, rest assured, your competitors will.

Just my opinion, of course.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
I'll assume you're talking about ISO9001:2000? If so, I think you have the ammmunition you need in clause 8.3:



/Claes[/LEFT]
I am in agreement there. 8.3 would be the guiding paragraph.

chergh said:
If you define non-conformances as non conforming parts then surely your internal audit system cannot conform to 8.2.2
I feel the 8.2.2 would not apply at this time. The definition of nonconforming is the topic, which reflects, in my opinion, maybe the system is still being developed and/or implemented.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#24
I feel the 8.2.2 would not apply at this time. The definition of nonconforming is the topic, which reflects, in my opinion, maybe the system is still being developed and/or implemented.
Whether or not something conforms, or is in "conformity" isn't dependent upon the stage of implementation. Something either conforms or it doesn't. The point I think chergh was making is that "conformity" has a specific, normative definition in the standard, and 8.2.2 says,
The management responsible for the area being audited shall ensure that actions are taken...to eliminate detected nonconformities...
Redefining "nonconformance" (which is the same thing as "nonconformity") certainly raises rational questions regarding adherence to the clear intent of the standard in this regard.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#25
Redefining "nonconformance" (which is the same thing as "nonconformity") certainly raises rational questions regarding adherence to the clear intent of the standard in this regard.
Amen brother.

That is why I said that the ISO 9000 definition is normative.
3.6.2 - nonconformity
non-fulfilment of a requirement (3.1.2)
If people start to re-define basic concepts willy-nilly, then the whole idea of following a Standard is trounced.


 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#26
The point I think chergh was making is that "conformity" has a specific, normative definition in the standard, and 8.2.2 says
The management responsible for the area being audited shall ensure that actions are taken...to eliminate detected nonconformities...
I have underlined specific sentences or words to address:

If that is what the thought pattern was driving at, then I might agree. But, if nonconforming/nonconformities has not yet been defined, then how would this apply to a system in development/implementation stage?

I guess I have lost a connection here :bonk: :confused:
 
Last edited:

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#27
ISO 9000:2000 uses its typical around the gardens approach
3.6.2
nonconformity
non-fulfilment of a requirement (3.1.2)
3.1.2
requirement
need or expectation that is stated, generally implied or obligatory
NOTE 1 “Generally implied” means that it is custom or common practice for the organization (3.3.1), its customers (3.3.5) and other interested parties (3.3.7), that the need or expectation under consideration is implied.
NOTE 2 A qualifier can be used to denote a specific type of requirement, e.g. product requirement, quality management requirement, customer requirement.
NOTE 3 A specified requirement is one which is stated, for example, in a document (3.7.2).
NOTE 4 Requirements can be generated by different interested parties.
It can mean whatever you want it to mean

:topic:
Does this
ISO9001:2000 said:
2 Normative reference
The following normative document contains provisions which, through reference in this text, constitute provisions of this International Standard. For dated references, subsequent amendments to, or revisions of, any of these
publications do not apply. However, parties to agreements based on this International Standard are encouraged to investigate the possibility of applying the most recent edition of the normative document indicated below. For undated references, the latest edition of the normative document referred to applies. Members of ISO and IEC maintain registers of currently valid International Standards.
ISO 9000:2000, Quality management systems — Fundamentals and vocabulary.
mean that if you use the definitions from ISO 9000:2005 you are in fact wrong? or right?
 
G

Greg B

#28
If that is what the thought pattern was driving at, then I might agree. But, if nonconforming/nonconformities has not yet been defined, then how would this apply to a system in development/implementation stage?

I guess I have lost a connection here :bonk: :confused:
This is what I was trying to get at in my previous two repsonses. The definition of NC must be defined by the COMPANY. It is all well for the standard to have a 'normative' reference but that does nothing for the guy on the shop floor or the QA inspector. Here is the simple answer:
  • Define a NC for your company
  • Define how you control NCs within the company in line with the Standard and your business requirements
The problem with your management must be addressed but we can't do that for you. I suggest you write up an acceptable 'Controlling NCs' paragraph/chapter in your Quality manual, take it to your next Management review meeting and try and convince them of the standards intenet and how it can HELP your business. See my previous post on what we use for training our shop floor guys - even they can understand it
 

Colin

Quite Involved in Discussions
#29
I think it is worth considering why we raise NC's. Surely it is to identify where corrective action needs to be taken. Clause 8.3 is not a 'stand alone' clause, it is part of a wider issue.

If NC's are only identified with the finished product and/or if the customer spots them, we are missing opportunities to improve the system and drive out problems.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
I think it is worth considering why we raise NC's. Surely it is to identify where corrective action needs to be taken. Clause 8.3 is not a 'stand alone' clause, it is part of a wider issue.
I agree.

Paragraph 8.5.2 could also apply. But, I still stand on that the system is either still in developmental or implementation stage. Once the system has been developed, with all requirements in effect and the system is going through maturity, than the other applicable requirements, paragraphs 8.5.2, 8.2.2, 8.2.4, 8.3, 8.4, and 8.5.1 apply.
 
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