Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes (IATF 16949)

kylerf

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hi,

This may seem like a dumb question to you guys but,
What ISO/TS/ element would a write up on not following the organizations own procedures/processes/work instructions be?

For example, lets say that the organization stated in the procedure that the wall are to be green, but a third party comes in and the walls are purple. What TS/IATF element would this be against?

There are a couple clauses that i believe it could be but i cant find one that comes out and says "follow your own processes"

thoughts?
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#2
re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

What ISO/TS/ element would a write up on not following the organizations own procedures/processes/work instructions be?
4.4.1.c)
determine and apply the criteria and methods (including monitoring, measurements and related performance indicators) needed to ensure the effective operation and control of these processes;
 

Golfman25

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#3
re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

Hi,

This may seem like a dumb question to you guys but,
What ISO/TS/ element would a write up on not following the organizations own procedures/processes/work instructions be?

For example, lets say that the organization stated in the procedure that the wall are to be green, but a third party comes in and the walls are purple. What TS/IATF element would this be against?

There are a couple clauses that i believe it could be but i cant find one that comes out and says "follow your own processes"

thoughts?
What clause did the auditor cite? I haven't really seen a non-conformance for not following our own procedures as most procedures are linked to a clause. So the auditor always found fault with application of the clause itself.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
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#4
Oh goodness Not THIS again - Not following internal procedures? A FIREABLE offense. Period.

<snip> I haven't really seen a non-conformance for not following our own procedures <snip>
Surely your company does not allow this... Nor does any standard that I am aware of.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#5
Re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

Oh goodness Not THIS again - Not following internal procedures? A FIREABLE offense. Period.

Surely your company does not allow this... Nor does any standard that I am aware of.
Actually after a while most outside auditors didn't even bother with our written "procedures." Everything was evaluated with regard to the standard. It actually worked excellent for us. Our internal auditors where able to focus on compliance with procedures which where designed to comply with the standard and was more their area of expertise. The third party auditors would focus more on the standard, which they where experts in. Duplication and redundancy was reduced and we actually had some value from both.
 

Jen Kirley

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#6
Re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

Actually after a while most outside auditors didn't even bother with our written "procedures." Everything was evaluated with regard to the standard. It actually worked excellent for us. Our internal auditors where able to focus on compliance with procedures which where designed to comply with the standard and was more their area of expertise. The third party auditors would focus more on the standard, which they where experts in. Duplication and redundancy was reduced and we actually had some value from both.
I'm glad this works for you, but I have managed to have more meaningful input when reviewing the process, then asking for the procedure and actually reading it, and finding (along with the client) parts of it that don't make sense. I have found in these cases that insiders can sometimes be too close to a procedure to notice issues with it.
 

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

Hi,

This may seem like a dumb question to you guys but,
What ISO/TS/ element would a write up on not following the organizations own procedures/processes/work instructions be?

For example, lets say that the organization stated in the procedure that the wall are to be green, but a third party comes in and the walls are purple. What TS/IATF element would this be against?

There are a couple clauses that i believe it could be but i cant find one that comes out and says "follow your own processes"

thoughts?
Your question is in the internal auditing sub-forum., and therefore I assume you are talking about internal auditing.
Here, do not be bogged down with the standards clause etc. If your procedure xx.yy is not being followed as stated in that procedure, just write-up quoting that procedure, along with the observed evidence.
To quote the standards clause in the NC is the third party auditors business, not yours.
You look into your processes and systems you have established during your internal auditing.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

I'm glad this works for you, but I have managed to have more meaningful input when reviewing the process, then asking for the procedure and actually reading it, and finding (along with the client) parts of it that don't make sense. I have found in these cases that insiders can sometimes be too close to a procedure to notice issues with it.
So what do you do with unwritten procedures? The trend on each revision has been to do away with mandatory written procedures and now even a quality manual.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
Re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

So what do you do with unwritten procedures? The trend on each revision has been to do away with mandatory written procedures and now even a quality manual.
Just a quick answer/suggestion:

Use a flow chart identifying the processes. Use this instead of written procedures.

Just my suggestion.
 

kylerf

Involved In Discussions
#10
Re: Nonconformance on training - Not following own processes

The new standard (Iatf16949:2016) still requires a quality manual in sec 7.5.1.1

AS9100D is the standard you may be thinking of that has done away with the requirement of a quality manual or procedures in general.

Currently, the corrective actions procedure and the nonconforming product procedure are the only procedures required by IATF16949 and AS9100D.
 
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