Informational Nonconformances and Defects - Operator Error, System Error, or both?

In the event of a NC or defect, what/who is at fault?

  • "The system" is always at fault.

    Votes: 8 13.3%

  • "The system" is at fault ~ 90-96% of the time.

    Votes: 19 31.7%

  • "The system ~ 80%", operator ~ 20%.

    Votes: 21 35.0%

  • It's about even.

    Votes: 12 20.0%
  • Total voters
    60
  • Poll closed .
F

fireonce

Re: Nonconformances and defects - Operator error, system, or both?

Most of our defects result from system.
So we should improve step by step
 
P

psyched1

Involved In Discussions
Re: Circular Logic?

Michael T said:
Okay - let me propose this logic flow:

1) All humans are fallible.
2) Systems are designed by humans.
3) Systems are fallible.

(We could discuss the proposal that, theologically, there was one infallible human - but I'm not going there...)

In Deming's equation, the person cannot be separated from the system - therefore, you cannot blame the person as a root cause of a non-conformance. However, all systems are inherently flawed because they are designed by humans --

So, my root cause is always human error.

My corrective action - remove all humans.

Let's see how much work gets done now... :smokin:

Aren't these exercises fun?

:biglaugh:
Click to expand...

No human; no system.
No system; no product~
thus no problems

Unless you like food, shelter or clothing.
 
B

brianethomas

Re: Nonconformances and defects - Operator error, system, or both?

After more than 25 years in Quality, I see the same response to corrective actions, over and over. Operator error! In most cases, the supplier forgets that nonconformance is relative to two actions. One is the failure by the operation and the second is the escape at in-process or final inspection. This truly is systemic in its roots as these escapes should not exist. As it is difficult to weed out all errors and operators will make mistakes, sytems can always be improved!
 
P

progressive post

Re: Nonconformances and defects - Operator error, system, or both?

dear Mike.
it is system inadequacy that leads to nonconformance or defect. with all the due respect to Guru Demming,i woild like to submit the following.
what is the purpose of establishing system?what all it is supposed to address.?what will testify that quality plans in the system are effective.?what do we ask the work team to follow? answer is obvious-it is system and guidelines,instructions,plans for prevention therein.-then why to dilute the issue to pull others at all.
Guru wanted to keep people in focus then -but in the fast world, one must catch bull by horn and attempt to ratify the system unhesitantingly because men can always say -we were not told about? care for your guidelines first.....hope you agree.
regards.
kumar.
 
J

jackvanderhout

Re: Nonconformances and defects - Operator error, system, or both?

Don't blame the operator. Just find out why interpretations or handling went wrong. In most of the cases it is psychologically defined. The 80/20 rule counts (80% operator!)
 
Stijloor

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
Re: Nonconformances and defects - Operator error, system, or both?

jackvanderhout said:
Don't blame the operator. Just find out why interpretations or handling went wrong. In most of the cases it is psychologically defined. The 80/20 rule counts (80% operator!)
Click to expand...

Jack,

What 80/20 rule are you referring to? Source?

Stijloor.
 
Jen Kirley

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
Re: Nonconformances and defects - Operator error, system, or both?

jackvanderhout said:
Don't blame the operator. Just find out why interpretations or handling went wrong. In most of the cases it is psychologically defined. The 80/20 rule counts (80% operator!)
Click to expand...
What? Please give us some details about this.
 
E

Excelinda - 2010

:) Hi All,

I can't helped it to share...:tg: I voted for 96%... System/s built by
expert/s... but we cannot for anything in the world, get rid of this "employee error" (...i supposed... it could have been termed "Human error"). Employee is just one composition of the system.
I hope I didn't mixed up my word's...if so... please forgive me! Since forum is open for opinion...i'd like to make mine... :biglaugh: Procedures (sufficient and effective) were defined in the system...if people violated them intentionally or unintentionally:bonk:, doesn't it always unticipated by the system? why coined words such as corrective? preventive? and contingency/ies? aren't they for unticipated returns/NC? I think what we have here is how effectively we utilizes our RCS?
:2cents: Don't be harsh on your comments later... (just hoping!)

Newborn of "Q"
:magic:
 
E

Excelinda - 2010

:topic:b Sorry guys for too much smilies!!! I just found them cute to use!!!

Regards to All and ADVANCE MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

:lol:
 
C

charanjit singh

Involved In Discussions
I believe it is the lack of system and/or its implementation that is primarily the root cause of errors and non-conformities. (I would also include design deficiencies in this category).Even operator errors are often found to be due to lack of adequate training/guidance/monitoring that is managerial responsibility. Only a small percentage can be attributed to human/operator error. Hence my vote above.
 
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