Nonconformity's risk is too low, so don't report it?

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#11
“Contrary to Section 5.2 of the organizational Electricity Reduction Plan which states that all lighting is to be turned off if a room (especially closets, restrooms, breakrooms, etc.) is unoccupied, the overhead light was left on for 47 minutes in the men’s restroom, Building 2, Hallway B.” :D
If it is inappropriate, get rid of it.

Why is everyone trying to say an employee can disregard a policy and/or procedure because they personally don't believe it "makes sense" as to the appropriate way - Get rid of the requirement?

Instead of fixing a problem, people are looking for excuses.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#12
If it is inappropriate, get rid of it.

Why is everyone trying to say an employee can disregard a policy and/or procedure because they personally don't believe it "makes sense" as to the appropriate way - Get rid of the requirement?

Instead of fixing a problem, people are looking for excuses.
2 simple easy words....Competence & Authority
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#13
Somebody left the lights on in an office contrary to electricity reduction plan....Just turn the stinking light off!
Is it a single occurrence or a repeat, chronic problem? If you want change counterproductive behavior which demonstrates disregard for energy conservation policy, something has to happen.

Corrective action in this case might lead to a technological solution such as motion sensors turning lights off.

But if it doesn’t get reported, no one truly knows how wide spread the problem is.
 

Eredhel

Quality Manager
#14
This really is a great discussion. We try to be careful to not put too much documentation and procedures on things while at the same time ensure systemic issues aren't created.

If someone forgets to turn off a light once I'm not going to define that as a non conformance and write it up. If someone forgets to turn a light off every day I'm going to call that a non conformance and go from there. For a smaller shop like us I feel like we can keep on top of this because we have the right supervisors in place who can watch for recurrence and be aware enough to then bump it up to a non conformance. Better hiring and promoting practices.

I won't say I have the perfect answer, but for the context of our organization I definitely won't define every mistake as an official non conformance.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#15
I don't have Russell's Quality Audit Handbook from which the citation comes from.

But from my primer:
"..... risk of reporting an area of concern (based on sample size) should be compared to the benefit to be gained (or not lost) if the concern has merit. "

There then is a difference based on concern and non-conformity. To me, it's like saying "boy, that intersection is dangerous. There is going to be a crash" and "a blue car just ran into the side of a red car".

I think the auditor can make some kind of risk-based judgment regarding the severity/impact of the finding, but it does need to be documented. It can even be fixed while the audit is occurring.

Conducting audits and not documenting non-conformities really makes the audits not useful, to me.
 
#16
Agreed! I believe (and have for years) that what's discussed here is the confusion created when all auditing is seen through the eyes of external auditors - be they SQA or CB auditors. Those people, without much information, report nonconformities using what I call the "iceberg principle". In other words, "If I found it in a few hours, then there's more below the surface". They even use the famous "sampling caveat".

I'd like to believe that with Randy's extensive experience, he's registering his frustration with just that. Not everything needs a nonconformity written. Not everything is the tip of an iceberg. An internal auditor worth their salt will know (or should) what the systemic issues in the organization are. Indeed, the audits should be being scheduled to deal with these "squeaky wheels".
 
#17
I don't have Russell's Quality Audit Handbook from which the citation comes from.

But from my primer:
"..... risk of reporting an area of concern (based on sample size) should be compared to the benefit to be gained (or not lost) if the concern has merit. "

There then is a difference based on concern and non-conformity. To me, it's like saying "boy, that intersection is dangerous. There is going to be a crash" and "a blue car just ran into the side of a red car".

I think the auditor can make some kind of risk-based judgment regarding the severity/impact of the finding, but it does need to be documented. It can even be fixed while the audit is occurring.

Conducting audits and not documenting non-conformities really makes the audits not useful, to me.
Per my other post, I rest my case...
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#18
If someone gives you any bunk point them to this part of ISO 9001:2015, 10.2.1 "Corrective actions shall be appropriate to the effects of the nonconformities encountered
The determination of the need for corrective action, or not, is sound and justified. However, if people do not report on the actual nonconformances, one cannot determine if the problem is big enough and/or systemic to justify a corrective action being triggered. In other words, nonconformances are one thing; corrective action is something else.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#19
This really is a great discussion. We try to be careful to not put too much documentation and procedures on things while at the same time ensure systemic issues aren't created.

If someone forgets to turn off a light once I'm not going to define that as a non conformance and write it up. If someone forgets to turn a light off every day I'm going to call that a non conformance and go from there. For a smaller shop like us I feel like we can keep on top of this because we have the right supervisors in place who can watch for recurrence and be aware enough to then bump it up to a non conformance. Better hiring and promoting practices.

I won't say I have the perfect answer, but for the context of our organization I definitely won't define every mistake as an official non conformance.
The problem here, I think, lies in the phrase "official non conformance." First, the container is being confused with the thing contained. A nonconformity (or whatever you want to call it) exists whether or not it's documented. The map is not the territory and the nonconformity statement is not the nonconformity itself.

The second problem is that when you start allowing internal auditors--regardless of the size of the company--to make these types of judgments, the system is intrinsically undermined. Internal auditors should be unbiased observers, not problem-solvers. This is not to say that auditors can't or shouldn't be involved in problem solving after the audit. During the audit, auditors should always record and report what they see, and then let a higher authority determine the correct course of action.

Sometimes documented requirements are unintentionally too restrictive. If that's the case, it's a simple thing to review the requirements and determine if they need to be reworded or even eliminated. This is also something that should come out of an internal audit. People need to stop being so concerned about what things are called, stop painting themselves into corners, and let the internal audit system do its job.
 
Last edited:

Eredhel

Quality Manager
#20
Oh sorry I didn't mean determined by internal auditors. I mean determined by our QMS and the employees we have working here (not as an internal auditor hat). I may have skimmed the thread to quickly. My answer wasn't about auditing but day to day business.
 
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