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Not accepting a non conformity during an audit

Graciel

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hi, have you ever complained to the certification body about one non conformity that you received? Did they accept it? Which was the non conformity received?
Thanks
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#2
If you don't agree with one you'd be better served by sending an appeal to your certification body instead of haggling about one like a fish monger in a market.

You can review the NC, the requirement and evidence, but the sucker will probably still stand.
 

Thee Bouyyy

Involved In Discussions
#5
Hi, have you ever complained to the certification body about one non conformity that you received? Did they accept it? Which was the non conformity received?
Thanks
Yes, we did it last year with an API certification body. We didn't accept the 5 AARs. We only submitted 2 AARs complete responses. API accepted it.

See, if you are satisfied that the criteria are being met in your current QMS in compliance with the requirements, you can question any certification body with proof.
 

Ed Panek

QA RA Small Med Dev Company
Staff member
Super Moderator
#7
Most companies provide a review pathway. I'm sure yours has one. But you need to ask if this is the hill you want to die on.
 

Dazza

Registered
#8
The auditor should make it perfectly clear, why they are raising the non-conformity at the time of 'discovery', to give the auditee the opportunity to explain / provide suitable evidence as to why it is not a nonconformity.
The auditor has to demonstrate where the relevant clause in the standard, and/or your own process is not being met, for it to be a nonconformity.

Yes, I am an external auditor, and yes I have 'overturned' a potential nonconformity at the time of 'discovery', once I had explained why I thought it was a nonconformity and the client took the opportunity to demonstrate that they were meeting the requirements, at that moment in time, through discussion and extra evidence.

If the auditor is raising it at the closing meeting for the first time, this should have been agreed at the start of the audit, during the opening meeting as the approach that would be taken by the auditor with regards to nonconformities, and I have never come across that situation.
 

Ed Panek

QA RA Small Med Dev Company
Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
From ISO 19011 6.4.4 Communicating during the audit. During the audit, it may be necessary to make formal arrangements for communication within the audit team, as well as with the auditee, the audit client and potentially with external bodies (e.g. regulators), especially where legal requirements require the mandatory reporting of non-compliances. The audit team should confer periodically to exchange information, assess audit progress, and reassign work between the audit team members, as needed. During the audit, the audit team leader should periodically communicate the progress of the audit and any concerns to the auditee and audit client, as appropriate.

As the auditee, I would brief my CEO and executive team on any findings and how we will handle them before the closing meeting. To learn of an audit finding DURING the closing meeting would be very unprofessional and I would have a word with the audit team leader about it.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#10
I've delivered over 200 accredited lead auditor courses in quality, safety, environment and aerospace to roughly 1000-2000 professionals, and in hopefully every one of them I said the same thing at one time or another during delivery....Never, ever make the existence of a NC a "surprise" at the closing meeting....EVER!

When the evidence starts to show nonconformity discuss it at that time, don't wait.

Make sure you have a specific requirement and proof (evidence) that it has not been met (this goes beyond the stupid typo error....pretty lame NC)

Get up from your side and look at everything form their side (Standards are nothing more than basic specifications/blueprint to a house that the builder has the ability to change or modify the floorplan/construction based on the potential owners tastes and wishes as long as the basic requirements are met...MS are the same)

It doesn't matter one stinking bit what you the auditor likes, dislikes, wants, hopes, wishes or desires...You ain't part of the equation!

In all cases, benefit of the doubt goes to the auditee

Wanna guess how many nonconformities I've written have been appealed? NADA, including the majors!............ And there hasn't been any harm or foul as a result.

Have I missed some? Most likely yeah, but hopefully not within my sample.... Outside of the sample is outside the sample.
 
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