Not following the Procedures is a Nonconformance? Sales department

Sidney Vianna

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#11
If it is an NCR? then let me know the ISO 9001 clause related to this non conformity.
4.1. Failure to follow established procedures signify failure to implement PROCESSES, as devised. ISO 9001 is about process control & improvement. Documented procedures exist to describe how the process is supposed to work. Thus, and obviously, if you are not following a documented procedure, chances are, you are deviating from the intended way the process is supposed to be executed. Unless it is one of those instances where the documented procedure has not been revised to catch up with the intended process.
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
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#12
Please don't refer to them as 'violations'. Auditor are not cops and they don't write tickets....;)
To be fair, there could be difficulty in straight-across translating terms like nonconformance in various languages and dialects. Cultural influences could also impact selection of terms, as well as the system's maturity. I have noticed frequent examples of cross-culture discomfort as expressions are received from afar with locally developed impressions.
 

Sidney Vianna

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#13
To be fair, there could be difficulty in straight-across translating terms like nonconformance in various languages and dialects. Cultural influences could also impact selection of terms, as well as the system's maturity. I have noticed frequent examples of cross-culture discomfort as expressions are received from afar with locally developed impressions.
:agree1: Good point.
:topic:One of the challenges faced by the writers of international standards is the "translateability" of terms. Sometimes, terms have to be changed so they translate better in multiple languages.

But Andy also had a valid point, IMO.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
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#14
Thank you, I agree Andy has a valid point but its value is in the eye of the beholder.

My American Heritage Dictionary lists the 1st definition of violate as "to break or disregard" and 4th definition as "to disturb; interrupt".

And so, since we can select from different definitions of the same term it seems fair to use care when calling out that the term can be interpreted in a number of ways, not simply by referring to an American interpretation, however accurate, without including a scholarly basis. In other words, Give 'em the benefit of the doubt.
 
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C

ChrissieO

#15
Are these requirement of your own process/procedures? If so, an internal auditor should report the situation against those references - it's no sufficient to say 'per procedures'. Also, we don't see any evidence of the effect of this or any quantitative details. If I were a manager I'd be asking 'so what'...?
Quite agree Andy, so what if the local procedures are not being followed. Are the procedures a "rose coloured glasses" world or are the required for any legal or other purpose. If it is not practical or necesary to follow the local procedure, why have it?

I would look at the whole process and see if maybe its the written procedure that is wrong not the process.

Your procedures should say what you do, not you do what your procedures say.

If however if it is important that these procedures are followed for legal/SOX/financial auditing purposes then they should be followed and management are at fault for not insisting that they are. If management make it acceptable for people to cut corners, trust me they will.:yes:

Cx
 
Q

QCAce

#16
Are these requirement of your own process/procedures? If so, an internal auditor should report the situation against those references - it's no sufficient to say 'per procedures'. Also, we don't see any evidence of the effect of this or any quantitative details. If I were a manager I'd be asking 'so what'...?
Quite agree Andy, so what if the local procedures are not being followed. Are the procedures a "rose coloured glasses" world or are the required for any legal or other purpose. If it is not practical or necesary to follow the local procedure, why have it?

I would look at the whole process and see if maybe its the written procedure that is wrong not the process.

Your procedures should say what you do, not you do what your procedures say.

If however if it is important that these procedures are followed for legal/SOX/financial auditing purposes then they should be followed and management are at fault for not insisting that they are. If management make it acceptable for people to cut corners, trust me they will.:yes:

Cx
I read AndyN's reply a little differently. If you have a documented, written and approved procedure, then I think you need to follow it and you would want an auditor to let you know if it is not being followed?

I think you would ask the auditor "so what?" since they did not provide any procedure reference and no evidence. Without any reference or evidence then I think their audit finding becomes a useless statement of opinion?
 

Sidney Vianna

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#17
Your procedures should say what you do, not you do what your procedures say.
:confused: Not sure what you mean.

As I mentioned earlier, the reason for procedures to exist is that they describe the intended process, via activities and tasks. If an employee does not follow the procedure, s/he is deviating from the process, as devised, which is a fundamental departure from the basic goal of process implementation.
 
Q

qualityboi

#18
How could a company establish a baseline standard of workmanship and quality if people were not following procedures and had no consistency in their approches to performing a work activity? Performance would or could be all over the place. This is part of the very foundation of ISO 9001. :D
 

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#19
All the audit findings were against our internal organisational procedure. I would like know how far these kind of procedural violations affecting the standard requirements.

Also, effect of these violations were as follows from the management point of view;


1. Orders placed to the suppliers without management approval leads to an authorisation failure internally.
2. Quotations without terms and conditions of sale sent to the clients leads to failure in the negotations and sale agreement
legal clauses.
3. Quotations sent to the client without proper approval leads to an authorisation failure internally.
 
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ChrissieO

#20
:confused: Not sure what you mean.

As I mentioned earlier, the reason for procedures to exist is that they describe the intended process, via activities and tasks. If an employee does not follow the procedure, s/he is deviating from the process, as devised, which is a fundamental departure from the basic goal of process implementation.
In my experience, the written procedre is not always the right or most practical way to do things. Maybe they need to look at the actual procedure an see why people are cutting corners. i.e.

Are management encouraging them to do so?
Are management letting people get away with it?
Are all the details of the written procedure necessary?
Are the current procedures practical?
Is there a better way of doing things?

Ensuring that all product/service, regulatory and customer requirements are covered may be the actual written procedure needs to be re written.

Have you ever asked the question "why do you do it like that? or "Why do you retain x.y.z paperwork" and got the answer.

"BECAUSE WE ALWAYS HAVE" mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm that one always gets me thinking:frust:

Chrissie
 
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