Not following the Procedures is a Nonconformance? Sales department

J

John Martinez

#31
"Nonconformity" is the offense, not the citation of it.
I've lived in several states, and if you VIOLATE the law, you receive a citation. To Andy N's response, "violation" has a legal meaning. While I will agree Jim that a violation of a law may fit the definition of non-conformance (non fulfillment of a requirement), I would disagree that a non-conformance would be synonymous with violation.
 
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J

JaneB

#32
To return to the original question, yes, these are instances of nonconformity. Company procedures say what is to be done. It isn't being done. But as an intelligent auditor, I would aim to assess and report the potential risks or consequences of this behaviour for the organisation (to answer the 'so what'? question).

so what if the local procedures are not being followed. Are the procedures a "rose coloured glasses" world or are the required for any legal or other purpose. If it is not practical or necesary to follow the local procedure, why have it?
That would be a valid point for management to review and determine following the auditor report. For an auditor, they need to compare practice with procedures, and report if they differ. Clearly, given the information available, they do.

Your procedures should say what you do, not you do what your procedures say.
Er, if you mean 'procedures should accurately reflect practice', I agree with this as a principle. But to say 'not you do what your procedures say' combined with the previous paragraph sounds like you're saying 'never mind whatever is in the written system, you should just do whatever it is that you decide is practical and necessary. Nope.
That is contrary to the very point of having, and following a system. I disagree: you should be doing 'what the procedures say'. If not, then change the procedures (if that's the problem) or change what's being done. Because one or the other must change.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#33
All this talk about what a police officer will and will not do and I appear to be the only one that can say anything based on personal experience in that arena.:lol:

Anyway, I digress........Is not following a procedure a nonconformance? Nope, but it is a nonconformity...Unless of course you believe procedures are like the "Pirates Code" and only for guidance. Not only must procedures be established and maintained, they must be implemented...That means you actually gotta perform or do what the procedure says or requires.

This isn't a sword you want to throw yourself one.:nope:
 

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#35
Ah, but Randy. You are only one (ex-) cop and some are speaking from their experiences of meeting many...:lmao::lmao:

Reason behind this audit finding:

" The sales team has not followed the procedure purposefully/deliberately"


So,what is the conclusion or result of this discussion?
 
S

samsung

#36
Reason behind this audit finding:

" The sales team has not followed the procedure purposefully/deliberately"

So,what is the conclusion or result of this discussion?
IMO the conclusion has already been drawn that it's a valid nonconformance against your own procedure.

Now as to why the procedure was not (deliberately) followed by the sales team is a matter of analysis. You may initiate a suitable CA based on your findings (RCA).
 
#37
Reason behind this audit finding:

" The sales team has not followed the procedure purposefully/deliberately"


So,what is the conclusion or result of this discussion?
There isn't one I'm sorry to say! All we know is one fact and, like any puzzle, you need at least two facts to solve it! So, we must know one more thing and that is:

Was the result of not following the procedure a good one? Or,

was the result a poor one?

To answer these is also to direct management to the action necessary. When an auditor audits to find both facts, that is called 'auditing for effectiveness'. Sadly (and in this case) it's done too rarely.
 

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#38
There isn't one I'm sorry to say! All we know is one fact and, like any puzzle, you need at least two facts to solve it! So, we must know one more thing and that is:

Was the result of not following the procedure a good one? Or,

was the result a poor one?

To answer these is also to direct management to the action necessary. When an auditor audits to find both facts, that is called 'auditing for effectiveness'. Sadly (and in this case) it's done too rarely.
Ofcourse,it is a bad one as per the management..
 
S

samsung

#39
Ofcourse, it is a bad one as per the management..
Why not to say "it is bad on it's own merits." rather than attributing the fact to what management considers it like. If something is bad, it is bad and will continue to be bad whether or not the management endorses it so. The status is largely based on the specifications we set for things to be 'good' or 'bad'.

And this is probably one of the reasons organizations adopt structured management systems and define what's not good so that they later on don't have to depend on personal judgments.
 
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