Not following the Procedures is a Nonconformance? Sales department

J

JaneB

#41
Ofcourse,it is a bad one as per the management..
Why not to say "it is bad on it's own merits." rather than attributing the fact to what management considers it like. If something is bad, it is bad and will continue to be bad whether or not the management endorses it so. The status is largely based on the specifications we set for things to be 'good' or 'bad'.
:nope: 'Good' and 'bad' have their own connotations - which is why, I think, the Standard talks about conformity/nonconformity. It's entirely possible to be fully conforming with a process/procedure... but with one which is not am efficient or effective process. Perhaps it's convoluted, maybe it's too bureaucratic, maybe it has too many excess (and wasted) steps or requirements in it, for example. Do you really want to argue that this is a Good Thing? :confused: I don't. The terms 'Good' and 'bad' here just don't work and defy common sense.

The key point for me is as Andy said (my bolding added):
The auditor provided no evidence of the effect of not following the procedure. I don't mean that not following procedure is bad!
I agree with him - not following procedure is not simply, in & of itself, 'always bad'. To believe and hold that viewpoint takes us backwards to the bad old days (pun intended) where conformance to procedure was seen as the Be-All and End-All of quality. It isn't, and shouldn't be. If we just run around as quality professionals dinging people whenver they don't follow procedure, we will get & deserve a reputation for being picky and concerned with adherence to letter of law, regardless of anything else. That ain't my idea of quality.

Quality a la 9001 is supposed to be about consistency, yes, but it's at least as important to remember the importance of Improvement and Enhancing Customer Satisfaction.
An audit must report more than 'they're not following procedure' and stop at that point. If that's all internal auditors do, as Audit/Quality Manager I'd look to improve internal audits so that management gets more useful information than that! I'd be irritated & frustrated if that's all I got back from audit reports: 'they're not following procedure'. Immediate next question: SO WHAT? Please, please, answer that question too. Without that piece of information, there is no reasonable conclusion to draw. And management would every right to complain that they're not getting value from their internal audits/system.

IF (it's a big if, and not necessarily applicable to this case) people vary a procedure because it's a poor one... that's a whole different thing to varying the procedure because it suits them, they didn't have, didn't feel like following it, etc etc. Please: give management better information. Which is it here?
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#42
Good decision or bad decison doesn't enter into it, nor do the results of the decision.........If there is a requirement, within the scope of the system and scope of the audit, that is also covered within the defined criteria (scope) and evidence is presented that the requrement has not been fulfilled, it is a nonconformity. Now if part of the corrective action ends up being to change the requirement, and if the organization has the right to do so, no big deal, but the fact still exists that a requirement as it had existed, was not fulfilled and a state of nonconformity existed at the time of its discovery.
 
S

samsung

#43
:nope: 'Good' and 'bad' have their own connotations - which is why, I think, the Standard talks about conformity/nonconformity. It's entirely possible to be fully conforming with a process/procedure... but with one which is not am efficient or effective process. Perhaps it's convoluted, maybe it's too bureaucratic, maybe it has too many excess (and wasted) steps or requirements in it, for example.
It wasn't me but the OP himself who concluded the outcome to be 'Bad' ('as per the management'). My argument and advice to OP was simply to avoid using the terms "as per management".

Secondly, whether or not the effect of nonconformity was referenced in the Audit report, if the effect of NC was considered 'bad' by the company management, who I'm to conclude it otherwise.

Do you really want to argue that this is a Good Thing? :confused: I don't. The terms 'Good' and 'bad' here just don't work and defy common sense.
No question of argument since I never declared it either 'bad' or 'good'.
 
C

ChrissieO

#44
To return to the original question, yes, these are instances of nonconformity. Company procedures say what is to be done. It isn't being done. But as an intelligent auditor, I would aim to assess and report the potential risks or consequences of this behaviour for the organisation (to answer the 'so what'? question).


That would be a valid point for management to review and determine following the auditor report. For an auditor, they need to compare practice with procedures, and report if they differ. Clearly, given the information available, they do.


Er, if you mean 'procedures should accurately reflect practice', I agree with this as a principle. But to say 'not you do what your procedures say' combined with the previous paragraph sounds like you're saying 'never mind whatever is in the written system, you should just do whatever it is that you decide is practical and necessary. Nope.
That is contrary to the very point of having, and following a system. I disagree: you should be doing 'what the procedures say'. If not, then change the procedures (if that's the problem) or change what's being done. Because one or the other must change.
Yes you are right.

May be I didn't express myself clearly when I wrote that post. I have a bee in my bonnet about procedures that were written by some middle manager or qualit bod that bare no resemblance to how the job is done efficiently and get a little cross when NCs are raised for people not following procedures. My first question is always WHY? and that is really what I was getting at.

As ithappens in this case, as explained by the OP this was not the case. The procedures were correct but the sales team were not following it. Thias is why I then maybe suggested it was a training/awareness issue. Not on how to correctly execute the task but on WHY it is important to do so. As I think I said in one of my earlier posts, sales people in general, will bend the rules if they can when it comes to paperwork and they need to be made aware of WHY these procedures need to be followed, otherwise to them it is "doing for the sake of".

Cx
 

eternal_atlas

Involved In Discussions
#45
Yes you are right.

May be I didn't express myself clearly when I wrote that post. I have a bee in my bonnet about procedures that were written by some middle manager or qualit bod that bare no resemblance to how the job is done efficiently and get a little cross when NCs are raised for people not following procedures. My first question is always WHY? and that is really what I was getting at.

As ithappens in this case, as explained by the OP this was not the case. The procedures were correct but the sales team were not following it. Thias is why I then maybe suggested it was a training/awareness issue. Not on how to correctly execute the task but on WHY it is important to do so. As I think I said in one of my earlier posts, sales people in general, will bend the rules if they can when it comes to paperwork and they need to be made aware of WHY these procedures need to be followed, otherwise to them it is "doing for the sake of".

Cx
Here is the exact language used by the auditor and issued as an minor non-conformance.

From the auditors point of view:

One minor NCR was issued on the following discrepancies noted with respect to the procedural requirements:
• Management’s initial approval was not obtained for the newly identified manufacturers with whom the orders have been already placed.
• Some quotations were noted to be sent to the external clients without attaching the terms and conditions of sale.
• Several quotations with value above 100,000 US$ were noted to be signed by the un authorized Manager



From the Management point of view:

All above points were bad as the sales team have not followed the procedure.

From the Sales Team point of View:

All the above points were overlooked sometimes depends upon the situations and work pressure and hence deviations from the procedure had taken place and also it is practical to follow the procedure strictly.

From my point of view:

Why we have to issue an NCR for this finding?

Please comment more..
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#46
Good decision or bad decison doesn't enter into it, nor do the results of the decision.........If there is a requirement, within the scope of the system and scope of the audit, that is also covered within the defined criteria (scope) and evidence is presented that the requrement has not been fulfilled, it is a nonconformity.
Sorry, Randy, but I will disagree. That mind-set towards auditing, i.e., auditing is simply an exercise in conformance brings us only so far. Many people believe (myself included) that auditing needs to go beyond conformance checks and probe the processes (and system) for effectiveness. A fully conforming process that does not deliver the intended results is to nobody's benefit. I do agree with those that say that once a non-conformance is identified, the "so what?" question (as mentioned by Jane) should be asked. I think that is one way how auditors (internal and external) can assist the organization in improving. We need real added value auditing; the kind that goes beyond simple conformance checks.
 
#47
And further to Sidney's comments, the lack of an auditor's evaluation of the effectiveness of the process, (which may not be being 'followed') is one of the reasons why management don't/can't take serious responsibility for any resulting actions!

Too often we hear that 'management don't take action' etc. in response to an audit finding, well guess what? The auditor 'started it'!!:mg:
 
J

JaneB

#48
Good decision or bad decison doesn't enter into it, nor do the results of the decision.........
It's the second part of this statement that I disagree with... the refuting of anything to do with the results. I'd argue, always, that an audit that simply says 'didn't conform' and pays zero attention whatsoever to results, is not a particularly valuable audit. It may be a 'correct' audit, it may adhere to whatever... but from sheer commonsense, not to mention what management needs to know (ie, audit customers), it is not acceptable.

Audit must at least consider the results - whether actual or potential - of nonconformity. And management would be a whole lot more likely to pay attention to audit reports that alerted them to risks, threats or negative consequences than simply saying 'doesn't conform' and left everything else up to someone else.

Maybe, just possibly an external auditor can stop there if they take a strict letter of the law approach (possibly - although I'd still argue that strongly!) but no way in hell would I accept any internal auditor dumping a 'doesn't conform' report and standing back, considering their job was done. :nope:
 
J

JaneB

#49
I have a bee in my bonnet about procedures that were written by some middle manager or qualit bod that bare no resemblance to how the job is done efficiently and get a little cross when NCs are raised for people not following procedures. My first question is always WHY? and that is really what I was getting at.
I have exactly the same bee and agree with you entirely! Thanks for clarifying.

... sales people in general, will bend the rules if they can when it comes to paperwork and they need to be made aware of WHY these procedures need to be followed
Ain't that the truth - often because they believe their sole job is to 'make that sale' and everything else is secondary. And as you know and I know, it isn't. Those in marketing fields are often similar. :lol:
 
J

JaneB

#50
Here is the exact language used by the auditor and issued as an minor non-conformance.
Please clarify: internal/external audit? (sounds like external)

From the Sales Team point of View:

All the above points were overlooked sometimes depends upon the situations and work pressure and hence deviations from the procedure had taken place and also it is practical to follow the procedure strictly.
(I assume you mean 'not practical'. ) In other words: we won't follow the system at times when we don't have time/don't think it's practical/too busy/need to do it otherwise?? Uh huh. As someone already said, it isn't enough to have procedures. They have to be implemented - ie, done. And if they aren't, you have to do something about it!

From my point of view: Why we have to issue an NCR for this finding?
Who is 'we'?? As for answer - see previous para.

Please comment more..
Can you make your question/s clearer? Because I think you've got the answers already... Just asking 'Please comment more' isn't clear enough. Comment on what?
 
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