Not following the Procedures is a Nonconformance? Sales department

Randy

Super Moderator
#51
Hey guys I didn't say that decision results couldn't or wouldn't be discussed, but show me the shall.....We're locked into established scope, criteria, and objectives of each audit.

Can't you consider that management may realize on their own that they made a less than correct decision without an auditor having to point it out? Or do we need to draw them a picture?

And oh yeah, we weren't looking at effectiveness in this thread we were looking at a specific question about not following a procedure, and effectiveness is a whole other issue.
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#53
but show me the shall.....
You know the ISO 9000 definition of a requirement, which can be an implied expectation. Guess what? There is an implied expectation that audits should add value to the auditees.
We're locked into established scope, criteria, and objectives of each audit.
As long we perpetuate archaic approaches to audits, such as audits are just an exercise in conformance checks, we are part of the problem and not the solution. The first hint that paradigms are shifting is AS9101D, which makes it MANDATORY for CB auditors to assess the effectiveness of product realization processes. This healthy practice will, hopefully, transcend the aerospace sector and become norm in the auditing world.
Can't you consider that management may realize on their own that they made a less than correct decision without an auditor having to point it out? Or do we need to draw them a picture?
:confused: What? One of the obvious intended recipients of an audit result is top management. If the auditors are not delivering the proper information and results to them, what are we doing? To infer that audit results should not point top management to certain conclusions, detract even more from the value that audits should carry.
And oh yeah, we weren't looking at effectiveness in this thread we were looking at a specific question about not following a procedure, and effectiveness is a whole other issue.
Once again, effectiveness assessment MUST be part of a value added audit process. I don't think we should even attempt to separate it from auditing. Many of us see, on a daily basis, internal audits which are a total waste of time and effort. They don't add value to the organization, to the employees, to the customers, etc. Actually, the going-through-the-motion approach to audits belittle the value of the management system at hand. We (collectively) need to say: STOP THE INSANITY. If you are going to perform internal audits, do it right.
 
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B

Brunetta

#54
Hey guys I didn't say that decision results couldn't or wouldn't be discussed, but show me the shall......
ummm wouldn't this be the shall?....
"ISO 9001 8.2.2 The organization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals to determine whether the quality management system...
b) is effectively implemented and maintained"
 
J

John Martinez

#55
Maybe, just possibly an external auditor can stop there if they take a strict letter of the law approach (possibly - although I'd still argue that strongly!) but no way in hell (original edited) would I accept any internal auditor dumping a 'doesn't conform' report and standing back, considering their job was done. :nope:
That's good in theory, and I do NOT disagree. Problem is most internal auditors are sent to a course, given a checklist and sent out on their own. And, if the "course" does not cover "effectiveness" or how to determine it, then how can one expect an interenal auditor to perform at these levels? I'll answer it for you quoting a very talented and experienced individual...."NO WAY IN HELL." :cool:
 
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J

John Martinez

#56
Once again, effectiveness assessment MUST be part of a value added audit process. I don't think we should even attempt to separate it from auditing.
To support Sidney, if anyone doubts "effectiveness" is covered in ISO 9001:2008, next time you read through the Standard, highlight every instance of "effective" or "effectiveness" in the Standard, then look at it again.

Where I may differ with Sidney is that, while internal auditors should be evaluating effectiveness, without proper training AND experience, that's a tough nut to crack. I have not seen very many third party auditors who can do it.
 
J

JaneB

#57
That's good in theory, and I do NOT disagree. Problem is most internal auditors are sent to a course, given a checklist and sent out on their own. And, if the "course" does not cover "effectiveness" or how to determine it, then how can one expect an interenal auditor to perform at these levels? I'll answer it for you quoting a very talented and experienced individual...."NO WAY IN HELL." :cool:
Quality for me is about improvement and doing things better, not simply adopting this somewhat world weary and cynical outlook.

Sure, there are problems. But surely also quality professionals don't just say 'oh well, that's how the world goes' and stand back, confident that WE know what the problem is, WE have diagnosed it and WE know it 'oughta be different'? If we accepted mediocrity or sub-par performance as the norm, we should find a different field. Now.

Presumably your experience differs from mine. I've seen what you describe occasionally, but I won't accept it. If that's all they want (even when the consequences are explained), I move on. You can lead a horse to water etc.

The people I work with and seek as clients to work with want to do better, as well as other organisations with good systems (never mind being clients of mine) want more from their system than 'just the certificate on the wall' and strive to understand and improve.

So no, they don't just do the things you've listed above. I could go on: selecting a course for example - take care in selecting a course, and don't just think 'any old course will do'. Take care in selecting the right person/people for the role, make sure they're competent, and so on and so on - I won't insult your intelligence or experience by quoting the relevant clause/s for all the above, as I'm sure you know them at least as well as I do.
 
J

JaneB

#58
Sidney, such a good post of yours I could have re=quoted the whole thing, but I'll content myself with a few only.

You know the ISO 9000 definition of a requirement, which can be an implied expectation. Guess what? There is an implied expectation that audits should add value to the auditees.
Yes there absolutely is. Otherwise, what the hell is the point?

As long we perpetuate archaic approaches to audits, such as audits are just an exercise in conformance checks, we are part of the problem and not the solution.
There's plenty of problem around - but oh yes, we DO need the solution. Otherwise we well deserve the 'waste of flipping time and money' charge too often levelled at so-called 'quality audits'.

Once again, effectiveness assessment MUST be part of a value added audit process. I don't think we should even attempt to separate it from auditing. Many of us see, on a daily basis, internal audits which are a total waste of time and effort. They don't add value to the organization, to the employees, to the customers, etc. Actually, the going-through-the-motion approach to audits belittle the value of the management system at hand. We (collectively) need to say: STOP THE INSANITY. If you are going to perform internal audits, do it right.
Indeed yes. :applause:
 
J

John Martinez

#59
Quality for me is about improvement and doing things better, not simply adopting this somewhat world weary and cynical outlook.
I agree, that is why I love my chosen profession.

Sure, there are problems. But surely also quality professionals don't just say 'oh well, that's how the world goes' and stand back, confident that WE know what the problem is, WE have diagnosed it and WE know it 'oughta be different'? If we accepted mediocrity or sub-par performance as the norm, we should find a different field. Now.
Presumably your experience differs from mine. I've seen what you describe occasionally, but I won't accept it. If that's all they want (even when the consequences are explained), I move on. You can lead a horse to water etc.

The people I work with and seek as clients to work with want to do better, as well as other organisations with good systems (never mind being clients of mine) want more from their system than 'just the certificate on the wall' and strive to understand and improve.
Being a full time employee has its advantages, and disadvantages. I can’t choose with whom to work and it is frustrating when I get a client that has no intention of improvement.
 
J

JaneB

#60
Being a full time employee has its advantages, and disadvantages. I can’t choose with whom to work and it is frustrating when I get a client that has no intention of improvement.
Yes, I can empathise, and you're right there's pros & cons of being an employee. Having more say & more freedom (eg, to choose who to work with) was one of the things that called me out of employment. It's just that I don't believe that it's always as bleak as the picture you painted... but I do know how frustrating it can be at times, I've had days/weeks etc like that myself! Glad to hear you love your job too,and wouldn't it be great if more people 'got it'.
 
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